Originally posted by whiteroseGood point.
I agree that the simplest explanation for ghosts is that they are created by the brain. But then, aren't all of our experiences in some sense created by our brains? A classic example is the 6 people who all experienced the same event, but tell completely different accounts of it. So, if ghosts are a product of the brain, are they real? I think it depends on your definition of reality.
In that sense all phenomena are real: God exists; Aliens in UFOs are abducting people left, right, and center; I'm a sex machine.
I guess I'm thinking of a reality that's external to our perceptions of it. Does this exist? I assume it does, since that's the simplest assumption for me to make and still be able to interact with this world I sense around me. And if it is, then ghosts are unlikely.
Originally posted by amannionAs far as I know, the only reason to believe that reality exists external to our perception is that people can independently agree on the perception of many things. What I would call a table, you would probably call a table, and you would probably describe it in a similar way to me. Therefore, if one person sees a ghost, then there is a strong chance that it has something to do with their internal perception. However, if many people see the same ghost independently, then I don't see why it shouldn't be external to their perception just as easily as a table.
Good point.
In that sense all phenomena are real: God exists; Aliens in UFOs are abducting people left, right, and center; I'm a sex machine.
I guess I'm thinking of a reality that's external to our perceptions of it. Does this exist? I assume it does, since that's the simplest assumption for me to make and still be able to interact with this world I sense around me. And if it is, then ghosts are unlikely.
As for things like God, I don't think people usually see God in a phisical sense. I think the whole point is believing without seeing.
Originally posted by whiteroseAgreed ... to a point.
As far as I know, the only reason to believe that reality exists external to our perception is that people can independently agree on the perception of many things. What I would call a table, you would probably call a table, and you would probably describe it in a similar way to me. Therefore, if one person sees a ghost, then there is a strong chance that ...[text shortened]... ple usually see God in a phisical sense. I think the whole point is believing without seeing.
People can be pretty suggestive and like latching on to an explanation, whether it suits their particulars or not.
Lots of people claim to have been taken by aliens, but many of these are likely to be using the claimed experiences of others as the basis for their belief.
Likewise, if I claim to see a ghost and can mount a pretty convincing portrayal of that event, you can bet there'll be a few others who'll claim to have seen it too, whether or not they actually have. Group psychology and the comfort we feel in belonging to a group are coming into play here - not the reality or otherwise of the ghost.
Originally posted by amannionI agree that people can be very suggestive. Therefore, to say that a ghost sighting could be external to perception, it would have to be seen by many people independently without suggestion. Since people usually get very excited about seeing a ghost and tell everyone they know, this does not often happen. Therefore, most ghost stories are dismissed as being the result of internal perception and suggestion, which may or may not be true. Unfortunately, this is all speculation, and I think it will be a long time before there is any concrete evidence one way or the other. Until then, I think a healthy dose of septicism is warranted, but complete disbelief is not.
Agreed ... to a point.
People can be pretty suggestive and like latching on to an explanation, whether it suits their particulars or not.
Lots of people claim to have been taken by aliens, but many of these are likely to be using the claimed experiences of others as the basis for their belief.
Likewise, if I claim to see a ghost and can mount a pret ...[text shortened]... in belonging to a group are coming into play here - not the reality or otherwise of the ghost.
Originally posted by amannionOh, let us not forget the alien abductions. Any pet theories to explain that to the general public? :-)
Agreed ... to a point.
People can be pretty suggestive and like latching on to an explanation, whether it suits their particulars or not.
Lots of people claim to have been taken by aliens, but many of these are likely to be using the claimed experiences of others as the basis for their belief.
Likewise, if I claim to see a ghost and can mount a pret ...[text shortened]... in belonging to a group are coming into play here - not the reality or otherwise of the ghost.
Originally posted by DoctorDaraCarl Sagan made a good go of explaining these in his book The Demon Haunted World.
Oh, let us not forget the alien abductions. Any pet theories to explain that to the general public? :-)
Basically it goes like this:
We have strange things that happen to our bodies at certain times. For example, upon waking some people feel immobilised, paralysed for a short period of time - this is perfectly explained, but when it happens to you can be particularly disconcerting and frightening.
When someone experiences something that is new to them and frightens them, they want to explain it. Explaining something helps to ease our fear.
For many people, already distrustful of big science type explanations, they'll choose what seems to fit the circumstances of the time.
A few hundred years ago that might've been that some witch was casting a spell on you - hence the witch burnings that abounded.
Nowadays, with aliens everywhere in popular film and literature, it's an easy explanation that some can latch on to.
And for many who do it gives them a sense of belonging to a particular group and all of the psychological positives that this gives to humans.
Originally posted by amannionAwww, no bored high school youths playing tricks on their friends?
Carl Sagan made a good go of explaining these in his book The Demon Haunted World.
Basically it goes like this:
We have strange things that happen to our bodies at certain times. For example, upon waking some people feel immobilised, paralysed for a short period of time - this is perfectly explained, but when it happens to you can be particularly discon ...[text shortened]... nging to a particular group and all of the psychological positives that this gives to humans.
Originally posted by whiteroseI don't know why, for instance, my monthly cycle resets itself to synchronise with whatever females I am living with at the time. In fact, nobody does. It has been a baffling mystery to scientists for years.
I think you're right, we have gotten way off topic. I will grant you that my use of language has been a little vague. I think my basic point was that nobody seems to have a concrete explanation for this phenomenon, so there is no way to concretely describe what nobody knows for sure. Hence the vagueness. Hoever, just because scientists do not have a biolog ...[text shortened]... ience can't explain it, then it can't happen', when this is obviously not the case.
It's not certain that this even takes place. It could easily be an illusion.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021220.html
Originally posted by AThousandYoungOnly if all of the reality I experience is an illusion, which I suppose is a distinct possibility.
[b]I don't know why, for instance, my monthly cycle resets itself to synchronise with whatever females I am living with at the time. In fact, nobody does. It has been a baffling mystery to scientists for years.
It's not certain that this even takes place. It could easily be an illusion.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021220.html[/b]
Originally posted by AThousandYoungTo qualify, I don't know if most other women sync up, but I definitely do, and I'd be willing to bet that I'm not some strange freak of nature in this regard.
[b]I don't know why, for instance, my monthly cycle resets itself to synchronise with whatever females I am living with at the time. In fact, nobody does. It has been a baffling mystery to scientists for years.
It's not certain that this even takes place. It could easily be an illusion.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021220.html[/b]
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Originally posted by whiteroseThat's actually not a mystery, it's pheromones and called the McClintock effect in humans.. ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McClintock_effect Apparently you have to like the person for you to synchronize. Mice have a bunch of effects that have been observed in them, but humans the data is still out there. There's probably a nobel prize floating out there for it somewhere. :-D Any takers?
Only if all of the reality I experience is an illusion, which I suppose is a distinct possibility.