Boris Johnson, a conservative MP in Britain and also the owner of the Spectator paper, has said that people in Liverpool are hooked on grief and wallow in their status as victims.
Boris, one must realise, is a bit of a nutter. As is frequently pointed out every time he appears on "have I got news for you". Although the man seems to be clueless, he is well paid and the owner of a succesful paper. He is educated and probably has a lot more "clue" than he lets on.
Let's enlargen the debate slightly and move away from Livepudlians. Let's take the nation (Britain or Holland) as a whole.
Do we wallow in our grief?
Remember when Diana died? Hundreds of thousands of people lined the street and placed flowers on her grave. Indeed, she has now been voted the 3rd greatest Brit (which is truely bizarre, if you ask me).
Equally in Holland, remember Pim Fortuyn dying? There were 3 hour queues to sign his condolence register in Rotterdam.
I do agree with Boris Johnson that people wallow in their grief. Not just folk from Liverpool though. The nation as a whole consists of a bunch of whining, over-reacting, hysterical idiots.
If my mum died I wouldn't wait three hours in a queue to sign her bloody condolence register. Would you?
Most people never met Diana and most people never met Pim. How on earth can they be so grief-stricken?
What about in Holland a few weeks back? One of their popular singers died. They held a concert for him in the Amsterdam football stadium...with the coffin on stage! Seriously. I saw the begin on TV and didn't know whether I should applaud, cry or shout: "You morons!" at the TV screen. I went off and got drunk instead. Let it be known.
I reckon the media is feeding this grief hype. Especially the BBC who always have that sombre, deep male voice slowly explaining what's happening: "And now they are placing the lid on the coffin."
YES. I CAN SEE WHAT THEY'RE BLOODY DOING.
I don't mind a wee 30 minute program on telly if someone famous has died. Sure, if God Dylan died, I would like a little something done for him. Show us one of his concerts (without a bloody coffin on stage) or something. Maybe one or two people speaking their praise for his work.
I don't mind the old granny sitting opposite me in the bus patting my leg and saying: "That Diana was a nice girl, wasn't she?" I don't agree with her, but old grannies are like that about dead younger people.
There's no sense of proportion to it all anymore though. And although Boris is a stuck-up, upper-class, spoiled, public school brat, I'm glad he's come out and said it. Let the whining stop! Let the wallowing in self-pity stop!
I really, really, really wish he wouldn't appologise for it. But that seems to be another fashion recently. Being forced to appologise just because the majority of people disagree with you.
What ever happened to freedom of expression? Whatever happened to having an opinion and fighting for it?
Perhaps it's individuality we should place in a coffin, put on stage and have a mournful BBC commentator say in a hushed voice: "Now they are placing the lid on the coffin. Nobody ever really liked it anyway."
Originally posted by shavixmirBoris is one of the most entertaining MPs, although not necessarily the best (he is still a Tory!), but I also think he is more intelligent than he likes to project.
Boris Johnson, a conservative MP in Britain and also the owner of the Spectator paper, has said that people in Liverpool are hooked on grief and wallow in their status as victims.
Boris, one must realise, is a bit of a nutter. As is frequently pointed out every time he appears on "have I got news for you". Although the man seems to be clueless, he is ...[text shortened]... ushed voice: "Now they are placing the lid on the coffin. Nobody ever really liked it anyway."
However, on this point I agree with him (and you, Shavixmir, you'll be shocked to learn). The Diana stuff was ridiculous, even if you liked her (which I didn't).
As for Ken Bigley, sure it was horrific what happened to him, but why would the people of Liverpool be more bothered about him than any British soldier killed (or any Iraqi civilian, if that's your thinking).
Also, he went on about Hillsborough, and the scousers are still a bit touchy about that, to say the least.
Originally posted by shavixmirI'm glad to see that I am not the only one that thought the nation reaction to Dianas death was a major over-reaction. Not to mention hypocritical - she was being slated in the press just a week before she died for a number of reasons.
Boris Johnson, a conservative MP in Britain and also the owner of the Spectator paper, has said that people in Liverpool are hooked on grief and wallow in their status as victims.
Boris, one must realise, is a bit of a nutter. As is frequently pointed out every time he appears on "have I got news for you". Although the man seems to be clueless, he is ...[text shortened]... ushed voice: "Now they are placing the lid on the coffin. Nobody ever really liked it anyway."
More media crap - just this time it was knocking someone down, and then building them up
Originally posted by shavixmir"I reckon the media is feeding this grief hype. Especially the BBC who always have that sombre, deep male voice slowly explaining what's happening: "And now they are placing the lid on the coffin."
Boris Johnson, a conservative MP in Britain and also the owner of the Spectator paper, has said that people in Liverpool are hooked on grief and wallow in their status as victims.
Boris, one must realise, is a bit of a nutter. As is f ...[text shortened]... acing the lid on the coffin. Nobody ever really liked it anyway."
YES. I CAN SEE WHAT THEY'RE BLOODY DOING. "
Oh lay over, they're just trying to be inclusive. They have to give a full verbal account for all the blind people who have tuned in...
Diana was as much guilt as it was genuine greif. However, while I agree with you over the generalaties of what you are saying about the media you might want to bear in mind that mass display's of emotion over someone's death have been going on for thousands of years.
It may seem strange to purely rational people, but diana really did "touch" people whom she'd never met. She also gave people hope in that she was a celebrity who was genuinly a kind, caring person. If you do the research you'll find all sorts of historical equivalents to diana, albeit without the magnifying effect of modern media...
Ken bigley on the other hand is no fault of the media's, they are not the one's who managed to make it such a big and long-lasting story...
In essence, there are a large number of people out there, possibly the majority, who are ruled by their emotions. If you were to go up to one of these people and say "Why are crying for diana? You never even met her!", they would look at you blankly because they simply do not understand your reasoning.
MÅ¥HÅRM
Originally posted by MayharmThen these people need to get a life!
In essence, there are a large number of people out there, possibly the majority, who are ruled by their emotions. If you were to go up to one of these people and say "Why are crying for diana? You never even met her!", they would look at ...[text shortened]... se they simply do not understand your reasoning.
MÅ¥HÅRM
One of the reasons that people are obsessed by celebrities (or, more often than not, nonentities), is that their own lives are so interminably dull that they have to kind of borrow the lives of people who lead more interesting lives.
Diana was a simpering sloane who, after her divorce, obviously felt guilty about being a freeloader, and that she ought to do something to justify her existence.
Edit: something other than shagging her way through the upper class playboys of the world, at least.
Originally posted by shavixmirI would say the world as a whole is becoming more emotional and less sensible.
Boris Johnson, a conservative MP in Britain and also the owner of the Spectator paper, has said that people in Liverpool are hooked on grief and wallow in their status as victims.
Boris, one must realise, is a bit of a nutter. As is frequently pointed out every time he appears on "have I got news for you". Although the man seems to be clueless, he is ...[text shortened]... ushed voice: "Now they are placing the lid on the coffin. Nobody ever really liked it anyway."
I remember several years ago after a terrible incident in a school Prince Phillip said you could kill as many children in a classroom with a cricket bat as with a handgun. He was talking sense but was totally crucified by the public and the media. The government catered to the publics emotions by passing a useless law against handguns.
It also leads to disgusting results such as the ability of terrorists to change election results like in May in Spain.
Originally posted by VargI'm sorry, are you actually advocating an "existance" which does not include emotion?
Then these people need to get a life!
One of the reasons that people are obsessed by celebrities (or, more often than not, nonentities), is that their own lives are so interminably dull that they have to kind of borrow the lives of people who ...[text shortened]... g her way through the upper class playboys of the world, at least.
While an obsession can certainly be emotional it's highly unlikely to be the cause of the massive numbers expressing their grief at her death. If you're that cynical that you disagree, you should visit a shrink, that level of cynicism is unhealthy...
As to your belief that she didn't deserve it, while I think feeling guilty for being a rich and famous freeloader is somewhat silly, if that was the impetus for doing her level best to help the unfortunates of the world, then that's a damn sight better than feeling guilty and doing sod all about it... However I dont agree with your assesment, I dont think it was guilt that drove her, more likely it was desperation or unhappiness.
MÅ¥HÅRM
PS. While I know there is a "sloane" square in soho, london, my internal and my internet dictionary have both failed me. Is it a typo or does it actually mean something?
Originally posted by shavixmirI agree with Boris' points on Princess Di and Ken Bigley. Where he (or the writer of the editorial, if not Boris himself) went wrong was in laying in to the grief surrounding Hillsborough. That was 90 odd people, many of them kids and teenagers, dying in one of the worst sporting disasters ever. Given that an independent inquiry had cleared Liverpool's fans of blame, it wasn't really very sensible to accuse the city of being 'in denial' over their role.
Boris Johnson, a conservative MP in Britain and also the owner of the Spectator paper, has said that people in Liverpool are hooked on grief and wallow in their status as victims.
Boris, one must realise, is a bit of a nutter. As is frequently pointed out every time he appears on "have I got news for you". Although the man seems to be clueless, he is ...[text shortened]... ushed voice: "Now they are placing the lid on the coffin. Nobody ever really liked it anyway."
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoey...plus the fact that CCTV footage showing that the police were fully aware of the over-crowding whilst letting through more Liverpool supporters went conveniently missing from the control room at Hillsborough!
I agree with Boris' points on Princess Di and Ken Bigley. Where he (or the writer of the editorial, if not Boris himself) went wrong was in laying in to the grief surrounding Hillsborough. That was 90 odd people, many of them kids and teenagers, dying in one of the worst sporting disasters ever. Given that an independent inquiry had cleared Liverpool's fa ...[text shortened]... wasn't really very sensible to accuse the city of being 'in denial' over their role.
Rich.
On the radio the otherday they mention something re the hillsborough disaster & the sun newpaper which could be why Boris went off to Liverpool to Apologise here are the facts lifted from the net:-
The Sun newspaper
On the Tuesday following the disaster, Kelvin MacKenzie, then editor of The Sun, a British tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch, used the front page headline 'THE TRUTH', with three sub-headlines: 'Some fans picked pockets of victims'; 'Some fans urinated on the brave cops'; 'Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life'.
The story accompanying these headlines claimed that 'drunken Liverpool fans viciously attacked rescue workers as they tried to revive victims' and 'police officers, firemen and ambulance crew were punched, kicked and urinated upon'. A quote, attributed to an unnamed policeman, claimed that a dead girl had been abused and that Liverpool fans 'were openly urinating on us and the bodies of the dead'.
In their history of The Sun, Peter Chippendale and Chris Horrie wrote:
'As MacKenzie's layout was seen by more and more people, a collective shudder ran through the office [but] MacKenzie's dominance was so total there was nobody left in the organisation who could rein him in except Murdoch. [Everyone] seemed paralysed, "looking like rabbits in the headlights", as one hack described them. The error staring them in the face was too glaring. It obviously wasn't a silly mistake; nor was it a simple oversight. Nobody really had any comment on it—they just took one look and went away shaking their heads in wonder at the enormity of it. It was a "classic smear".'
Lord Justice Taylor's official inquiry into the disaster disparaged The Sun's story and was unequivocal as to the disaster's cause:
'The real cause of the Hillsborough disaster [was] overcrowding, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.'
Following The Sun's report, the newspaper was boycotted by most newsagents in Liverpool, with many refusing to stock the tabloid and large numbers of readers cancelling orders and even refusing to buy from shops which did stock the newspaper.
MacKenzie explained his reporting in 1993. Talking to a House of Commons National Heritage Select Committee he said "I regret Hillsborough. It was a fundamental mistake. The mistake was I believed what an MP said. It was a Tory MP. If he had not said it and the chief superintendent had not agreed with it, we would not have gone with it." This explanation was not accepted by families of Hillsborough victims. Even fifteen years after the Hillsborough disaster, the circulation of The Sun in Liverpool is still reckoned to be only 12,000 copies a day where previously it was around 200,000.
The Sun itself issued an apology "without reservation" in a full page opinion piece on Wednesday 7th July 2004, saying it had that "committed the most terrible mistake in its history." The Sun was responding to the intense criticism of Wayne Rooney, a Liverpool-born football star who then still played in the city (for Everton), who had sold his life story to the newspaper. Rooney's actions had incensed Liverpool dwellers still angry at The Sun. The Sun's apology was somewhat bullish, saying that the "campaign of hate" against Rooney was organised in part by the Liverpool Daily Post & Echo, owned by Trinity Mirror, who also own the Daily Mirror, arch-rivals of The Sun. Thus the apology actually served to anger some Liverpudlians further. The Liverpool Echo itself did not accept the apology, calling it "shabby" and "an attempt, once again, to exploit the Hillsborough dead."
Originally posted by Jay PeateaWell...yeah...the sun is crap. I know this, you know this and every bloody person in Britain with more than a single digit IQ knows this...
On the radio the otherday they mention something re the hillsborough disaster & the sun newpaper which could be why Boris went off to Liverpool to Apologise here are the facts lifted from the net:-
The Sun newspaper
On the Tuesday following the disaster, Kelvin MacKenzie, then editor of The Sun, a British tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch, us ...[text shortened]... ology, calling it "shabby" and "an attempt, once again, to exploit the Hillsborough dead."
Rupert Murdoch is a toss-pot. Everyone knows that. Surely?
The great example was during the first election when T. Blair got elected (1997?). Suddenly the Sun changed parties.
'We are no longer supporting the Tory party. We now support New Labour.' they proudly announced.
So much for objective reporting...
They do whip up hypes though. Boy do they ever! I remember the Pediatrist being attacked by anti-child-porn campaigners...
That was classic. And true! He had a sign outside his door stating he was a pediatrician. He was attacked by a mob, whipped up by the Sun to stop child-porn in the Uk.
Oh yes...The Sun is a great benifit to British society.
Originally posted by mmanuelWhen Diana died, people were not just weeping for her death, they were weeping for the death of several of the things she stood for. SHe was symbolic of the fairy tale wedding that all of us are brought up to hope for. When her marriage fell apart, I think many women identified with her because of their own troubled marriages. Any time someone young dies , it is sadder than when someone old dies. She was in the bloom of life, and the shocking end made her story so much sadder.
I'm glad to see that I am not the only one that thought the nation reaction to Dianas death was a major over-reaction. Not to mention hypocritical - she was being slated in the press just a week before she died for a number of reasons.
More media crap - just this time it was knocking someone down, and then building them up
I do agree that the media makes any sensational event a case of over kill, attempting to whip people into an emotional frenzy.
Originally posted by shavixmirOf course I know this that's why I buy the Star 😉
Well...yeah...the sun is crap. I know this, you know this and every bloody person in Britain with more than a single digit IQ knows this...
Rupert Murdoch is a toss-pot. Everyone knows that. Surely?
The great example was during the first election when T. Blair got elected (1997?). Suddenly the Sun changed parties.
'We are no longer supporting the To ...[text shortened]... e Sun to stop child-porn in the Uk.
Oh yes...The Sun is a great benifit to British society.
Originally posted by elvendreamgirlAll I really remember of Diana is that she strolled along mine-fields...wbidb were obviously already dug up for her....
When Diana died, people were not just weeping for her death, they were weeping for the death of several of the things she stood for. SHe was symbolic of the fairy tale wedding that all of us are brought up to hope for. When her marriage fell apart, I think many women identified with her because of their own troubled marriages. Any time someone young ...[text shortened]... s any sensational event a case of over kill, attempting to whip people into an emotional frenzy.
Originally posted by MayharmFrom thefreedictionary.com:
I'm sorry, are you actually advocating an "existance" which does not include emotion?
While an obsession can certainly be emotional it's highly unlikely to be the cause of the massive numbers expressing their grief at her death. If you're that cynical that you disagree, you should visit a shrink, that level of cynicism is unhealthy...
As to your ...[text shortened]... and my internet dictionary have both failed me. Is it a typo or does it actually mean something?
The term "Sloane Ranger" (often pluralised to just Sloanes) refers to the lifestyle of upper-middle class young women living in west London (the young under-employed and ostentatiously well-off members of the upper classes). It was coined by British author Peter York in his book the Official Sloane Ranger Handbook (co-authored with Ann Barr). The term combines "Sloane Square" (an area of London where these women would typically live or hang out) with "Lone Ranger".