Originally posted by jammer"I vote just to keep my bitching rights .. if you don't vote, you have to give them up IMHO."
When did it become unconstitutional to have a humble opinion?
You can have your opinion, and you can voice your opinion.
But it would surely be unconstitutional for you to decide that others can't voice their opinions.
Originally posted by slimjimA cliche repeated enough that it has become accepted as solid principle.
There is no excuse in not voting. If you don't vote then don't bitch about the elected officials.
Exactly why shouldn't someone be able to complain? My home state had virtually no presidential campaign comercials in 2004 since it was not in play. Does it make sense that I burn a gallon of gas, contributing to global warming, to cast a vote that has no chance of changing the outcome in my state? There was no US Senate seat election in my state, and my US House district is so gerrymandered that my representative couldn't lose if he campaigned naked.
Of course someone is going to say "what if everyone thought that way?" Well, if it started looking like many people were thinknig that way, then it would be time to change. But most people are securely bought into the tripe "if you don't vote, don't complain".
Originally posted by aging blitzer.. and you'd have a point if I actually tried to prevent others from voiceing there opinions, but I didn't and you don't.
"I vote just to keep my bitching rights .. if you don't vote, you have to give them up IMHO."
You can have your opinion, and you can voice your opinion.
But it would surely be unconstitutional for you to decide that others can't voice their opinions.
Originally posted by techsouthYou ARE ABLE to complain, obviously .. it just don't mean nothin' if you don't actually participate IMO.
Exactly why shouldn't someone be able to complain
You see your vote as meaningless and more trouble than it's worth to take a drive down a country road, fine by me. I've always encouraged most people I meet not to vote, it's good thing IMO. Less total votes makes my single vote all the stronger.
The thing about "don't complain if you don't vote" is prompted by your apathy.
You don't care enough to TRY to make a difference, but you want to criticise those that do .. you can, it's just that you come off as a spoiled child holding his breath over in the corner.
Many stand on the sidelines and point fingers, a few actually take responsibilty and participate in the system that affects there lives every day. You can say you're not responsinle (because you didn't vote for the jerk), but you're still subject to the decisions he makes.
You can be a victim (easy way out) or you can take part .. you can even complain about something you chose not to be part of .. you just sound silly doing it.
Originally posted by jammerLOL, you're able to complain about complaining, but it "don't mean nothin'" if you use double negatives.
You ARE ABLE to complain, obviously .. it just don't mean nothin' if you don't actually participate IMO.
You see your vote as meaningless and more trouble than it's worth to take a drive down a country road, fine by me. I've always encouraged most people I meet not to vote, it's good thing IMO. Less total votes makes my single vote all the stronger.
The t ...[text shortened]... ain about something you chose not to be part of .. you just sound silly doing it.
Originally posted by jammerJust to clarify, I meant to disagree with the charge that "if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain". I was not intending to imply anything about my personal situation, and in fact I did vote in 2006, 2004, 2002, but was out of the country in 2000. I also voted in a few primaries and off year elections (e.g. 2005, 2003, can't remember 2001).
You ARE ABLE to complain, obviously .. it just don't mean nothin' if you don't actually participate IMO.
You see your vote as meaningless and more trouble than it's worth to take a drive down a country road, fine by me. I've always encouraged most people I meet not to vote, it's good thing IMO. Less total votes makes my single vote all the stronger.
The t ...[text shortened]... ain about something you chose not to be part of .. you just sound silly doing it.
Nevertheless, I think it is nothing but tripe to say "if you don't vote, don't complain" for the reasons I stated.
Compare these two:
1.I think Scooter Libby got treated unfair by comparison to how Sammy Burger got treated. Scooter Libby is going to jail, Sammy Burger got mere probation. Since I voted, this thought merrits significant consideration from those inclined to disagree.
2.I think Scooter Libby got treated unfair by comparison to how Sammy Burger got treated. Scooter Libby is going to jail, Sammy Burger got mere probation. But I didn't vote, so all readers should ignore this thought.
If I didn't vote, perhaps I have a slight problem with apathy. But for someone to judge the content of the about two paragraphs differently based on whether I voted or not, I say that person has much bigger problems.
So if we break things down: "If you don't vote, you shouldn't complain". What exactly does that mean? Obviously it doesn't mean my Constitutional right to complain should be denied. I have the right to complain whether I vote or not. Also, it can't mean that that I don't have any good points if I don't vote. I can make very astute political observations without voting. And what about the listener. If someone chooses to judge the content of what I say based on whether I voted or not (not that they know whether I voted or not in most cases), then I truly feel sorry for that person.
So if it doesn't mean I actually am prohibited from complaining, and it is not a meaningful gage to judge the content of my complaints, then I am genuinely at a loss for what meaning is left. With careful scrutiny, it seems that all actual meaning boils completely away. What exactly is meant by "if you don't vote, don't complain", other than a meaningless slogan parrotted by those who are properly trained to do so?
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I've been holding my nose and voting for faux-left-wing parties all my life in the absence of any decent alternative further to the left. I can understand why people don't vote in national elections, but abstaining in local elections (and here that's where abstentions are sky-high) is beyond me - there's a lot to be said for looking more at the personal qualities of the candidates and less at the party labels at that level.
Originally posted by techsouthYou make a hellofan argument, so much so that you made me use my brain and (re)consider .. exactly what the hay DOES that "saying" mean?
Just to clarify, I meant to disagree with the charge that "if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain". I was not intending to imply anything about my personal situation, and in fact I did vote in 2006, 2004, 2002, but was out of the country in 2000. I also voted in a few primaries and off year elections (e.g. 2005, 2003, can't remember 2001).
Neverthe ...[text shortened]... meaningless slogan parrotted by those who are properly trained to do so?
I think I first heard it from my Granny 'bout 1948 when she was tellin' my Father to sit down and shut up at the dinner table.
One of my earlest memories.
I loved it 'cause she dressed down the BigDog .. my Pa. He had been bitchin' about the Mayor of Detriot doin' somethin or other and Granny stood up with that big spoon in her hand and said "You wouldn'y even get off your butt and vote for his opponent, so sit down and shut up, you're ruinin' dinner."
I've heard and repeated it many times since, but you, in your eloquence, caused me to look deeper and my answer is ...
I don't think it means you shouldn't complain or that you can't complain or that you have no right to complain.
I think often, but not always, it makes you a hypocrite to complain about something that you could have had an affect on, but didn't deam important enough at the time.
As you documented very well, it's not always hypocracy, but when it obviously is .. it should be exposed for what it is IMO
Not sayin' that's you, from your post, obviously not, but for many other here .. if the shoe fits, wear it.
Originally posted by ivanhoeI'm all for a revolution.
We know that approximately 50% of the people who are allowed to vote do not go and vote in the US presidential elections.
I wonder what the reasons are for them not to vote. Some say that these people are not interested in politics. Well, this is true of course for a certain percentage, but there must be more reasons and above all more interesting and mo ...[text shortened]... om and true democracy, is it ?
Maybe you do not vote also. Can you give us the reasons ?
Originally posted by jammerSomeone actually re-considered an idea as a result of Internet debate.
You make a hellofan argument, so much so that you made me use my brain and (re)consider .. exactly what the hay DOES that "saying" mean?
I think I first heard it from my Granny 'bout 1948 when she was tellin' my Father to sit down and shut up at the dinner table.
One of my earlest memories.
I loved it 'cause she dressed down the BigDog .. my Pa. He had ...[text shortened]... r post, obviously not, but for many other here .. if the shoe fits, wear it.
I am at a loss. This has never happened before to my knowledge.
I think you're right that much complaining amounts to nothing but that and is often characteristic of hypocracy.
But I think our choice in America is much more difficult a matter to be settled by whether or not we vote. Our countries founders risked their lives, expended their personal fortunes, and in many cases ended their lives much worse off than they could have had they just gone with the flow.
I personally have donated to a few political causes. As a result, I've wound up on scores of mailing lists and regularly get alarmists notices that while they may be reasonable causes, are at the very least very manipulative in how they seek additional funds. Very likely $1 billion will be spent in the 2008 elections, much of it coming from donors such as myself. But I could very easily give away 50% of all I have and have zero effect on the big picture. I don't even know if the money I send will be used well. The only hope of really making a difference is to expend your life, risking jail time for civil disobedience, or even worse than jail time.
Meanwhile, like many others, I have family. I have a wife and two young kids. Do I want to spend their childhood locked up in prison because I tried to reverse some of the alarming trends in America today? This is difficult to justify since I also believe America offers the best blend of freedom and prosperity of anywhere at anytime in history. Do I fight for my country, at the expense of my family, or do I focus on my family knowing my country will self destruct in a matter of time? I personally don't think just voting amounts to putting up a fight for my country. I don't think sending large amounts of donations for the next presidential election amounts to anything. That is just an "arms race" that will impoverish us all. And running for office as a democrat or a republican is just a way of becoming part of the failing system.
But the idea of carrying out one's "duty to vote" is in my mind just a feel good idea. Putting up a real fight is going to take a lot more energy, and perhaps specialized talent than I have right now.
Originally posted by AmauroteHopefully people will do just that in a certain Glasgow seat in just over 4 weeks.....
I've been holding my nose and voting for faux-left-wing parties all my life in the absence of any decent alternative further to the left. I can understand why people don't vote in national elections, but abstaining in local elections (and here that's where abstentions are sky-high) is beyond me - there's a lot to be said for looking more at the personal qualities of the candidates and less at the party labels at that level.