Sorry for the click-baity title, but this is aggravating me.
Okay, to start: Yes, long covid happens. So does long flu and long pneumonia and long a lot of other things.
I've seen assertions that long covid affects between 10 and 30% of infected people. I know that's a wide range, but it's impossible to get a better number as far as I can tell (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/03/long-covid-risk/627031/).
The problem is that they're lumping all "long covid" into the same category and calling it a disability (Google it; there are so many articles on the subject it's pointless to cite one).
According to the CDC, long covid is any of the following that lasts after the illness is over (I've seen 4 weeks and 6 weeks as the threshold):
Difficulty breathing or shortness of breath
Tiredness or fatigue
Symptoms that get worse after physical or mental activities (also known as post-exertional malaise)
Difficulty thinking or concentrating (sometimes referred to as “brain fog” )
Cough
Chest or stomach pain
Headache
Fast-beating or pounding heart (also known as heart palpitations)
Joint or muscle pain
Pins-and-needles feeling
Diarrhea
Sleep problems
Fever
Dizziness on standing (lightheadedness)
Rash
Mood changes
Change in smell or taste
Changes in menstrual period cycles
Right. The problem is that those things are not equal. My 25 year old niece got covid in December. She's completely fine, but things still smell "garlicky" to her, which I only know because she mentioned it over the holiday when a savory stew was passed around the table.
She's got long covid.
I have another friend who was in awful health before covid and his healthy had been on steady decline which may or may not have been sped up by his covid case (which landed him in the hospital in 2020). He certainly has "long covid"
My father in law (also hospitalized in 2020 with covid) has been suffering from bad health for years sue to obesity and diabetes. His joint pain may or not be worse because of covid. But he definitely has "long covid" if you'd diagnose him - after all, he had covid in 2020 and now has joint pain.
My 32 year old cousin still says food tastes bland to him since he had the sniffles with Omicron in January. He has long covid.
My point is, before we use "long covid" as a policy instrument and use it to defend the Shanghai tyranny (as I've seen countless times on Twitter), we need to tease out which "long covid" sufferers are actually suffering from serious issues due to covid that would not probably have happened anyway.
To head off what I know will be the inevitable reactions of some, I'm not arguing for policy changes in the US right now, except to get rid of the testing requirement before international travel. What I'm arguing against is any justification from mass forced covid restrictions such as what China is doing and against any business/school closure and child masking movements still around.
@sh76
Gradations of disability based on a specific cause is already in place for every other illness. Why wouldn't that also exist here? I'm sure you won't qualify for federal disability based on things smelling garlicky. Long COVID is a useful term for medically identifying causes of symptoms.
@sh76 saidYou may be right, but we're dealing with multiple countries, top medical specialists (egos attached!) health departments, legal issues, and occasionally politics. Put this all in a container, stir well and this is what we're left with. JMHO - You're going to get your wish regarding mass forced covid restrictions such as what China is doing, but it's going to take time. Over 6 million people have died of COVID in the last 2-3 years. There is still a lot of naked fear out there.
Sorry for the click-baity title, but this is aggravating me.
Okay, to start: Yes, long covid happens. So does long flu and long pneumonia and long a lot of other things.
I've seen assertions that long covid affects between 10 and 30% of infected people. I know that's a wide range, but it's impossible to get a better number as far as I can tell (https://www.theatlantic.com/ ...[text shortened]... hat China is doing and against any business/school closure and child masking movements still around.
@shallow-blue saidHe appears to be equating *all* Covid measures with what's happening China. Like this sentence:
Erm... what's happening in Shanghai is quite a bit beyond normal Covid measures...
"My point is, before we use "long covid" as a policy instrument and use it to defend the Shanghai tyranny"
^ He's directly comparing possible Covid policies in the U.S. to China's measures, as "tyranny".
Hence my statement.
@vivify saidI apologize if I was unclear, but it is certainly not my intent to equate policies in the U.S. to China's measures. The Chinese measures are far beyond what was ever contemplated in the US (or any other country, as far as I'm aware).
He appears to be equating *all* Covid measures with what's happening China. Like this sentence:
"My point is, before we use "long covid" as a policy instrument and use it to defend the Shanghai tyranny"
^ He's directly comparing possible Covid policies in the U.S. to China's measures, as "tyranny".
Hence my statement.
I do think the Shanghai measures are the logical conclusion to the arguments of many of the Covidian zealots, but no western government would think that it could get away with that (I hope).
@sh76 saidI’m not sure what your point is.
Sorry for the click-baity title, but this is aggravating me.
Okay, to start: Yes, long covid happens. So does long flu and long pneumonia and long a lot of other things.
I've seen assertions that long covid affects between 10 and 30% of infected people. I know that's a wide range, but it's impossible to get a better number as far as I can tell (https://www.theatlantic.com/ ...[text shortened]... hat China is doing and against any business/school closure and child masking movements still around.
I’ve explained before (even yesterday in one or other thread) why governments resort to using measures to contain the spread / the pressure on the health services.
Long covid has nothing to do with the measures which were implimented.
That’s residue from surviving the disease. Generally it doesn’t weigh on the health services and it doesn’t influence the R-factor.
So, it’s uncomfortable for those with it, but of no real consequence to political decision making.
@wildgrass saidI can't find it now, but a blue checkmark Tweeted the other day that society was doomed to have to deal with covid disability as its dominant issue for the foreseeable future because 10-30% of cases get long covid and long covid can be disabling.
@sh76
Gradations of disability based on a specific cause is already in place for every other illness. Why wouldn't that also exist here? I'm sure you won't qualify for federal disability based on things smelling garlicky. Long COVID is a useful term for medically identifying causes of symptoms.
While not as direct, major media pieces have picked up this sentiment. It's fallacious. That's my point.
Restrict long covid suffering to something like "12 weeks after clearing the disease, the sufferer is unable to perform his or her previous job on the same level due to factors unattributable to non-covid inputs" and then we can discuss long covid as a policy input.
Long COVID is fine for medically identifying causes of symptoms, sure. But the I see it used it more "mandate masks in schools" or "mandate boosters" because long covid.
@shavixmir saidIf governments only enforced public health mandates when reasonably necessary to contain the pressure in health services, I would not disagree with you (except insofar as that I may disagree as to whether a measure actually is necessary to achieve that goal).
I’m not sure what your point is.
I’ve explained before (even yesterday in one or other thread) why governments resort to using measures to contain the spread / the pressure on the health services.
Long covid has nothing to do with the measures which were implimented.
That’s residue from surviving the disease. Generally it doesn’t weigh on the health services and it doe ...[text shortened]...
So, it’s uncomfortable for those with it, but of no real consequence to political decision making.
That is not the messaging we get on a regular basis. There have only been a couple of points that covid has threatened to overwhelm the healthcare system. ICU census in the US is at pandemic lows and the healthcare systems are under much less pressure than in a pre-covid December. That's can't be the justification for any remaining mandates.
@mchill saidI don't think what China is doing is about naked fear.
You may be right, but we're dealing with multiple countries, top medical specialists (egos attached!) health departments, legal issues, and occasionally politics. Put this all in a container, stir well and this is what we're left with. JMHO - You're going to get your wish regarding mass forced covid restrictions such as what China is doing, but it's going to take time. Over 6 ...[text shortened]... llion people have died of COVID in the last 2-3 years. There is still a lot of naked fear out there.
It's about justifying its zero-covid policy. New Zealand and Australia can say "oh well, we tried zero-covid, but it's time to give up on that; at least we have vaccines now." China can't. China boasted to the world (and it's own people) that its authoritarianism gave it the power to live without covid unlike those mewling democratic governments whose people have no willpower.
They'd rather oppress 30 million people and probably kills tens of thousands due to missed treatments, suicide and maybe even starvation than to swallow their boasts and acknowledge the realize that you cannot forever stamp out a super-contagious respiratory virus.
@sh76 saidThis isn’t true.
If governments only enforced public health mandates when reasonably necessary to contain the pressure in health services, I would not disagree with you (except insofar as that I may disagree as to whether a measure actually is necessary to achieve that goal).
That is not the messaging we get on a regular basis. There have only been a couple of points that covid has threatened ...[text shortened]... pressure than in a pre-covid December. That's can't be the justification for any remaining mandates.
The amount of patients in many countries were nearly overwhelming the health services.
The reason it didn’t happen, is because meaures were taken.
@vivify saidI count seven in this thread (granted, still a small minority)
Yes.
I do not agree that "long Covid" policies will be used "to defend the Shanghai tyranny".
https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1519305479360593923
Read almost any thread on Twitter started by Eric Ding or Eric Topol.
This one's a peach.
https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1519331383268851712
Anthony Fauci is now persona non grata because he dared to say we're no longer in the pandemic phase.
Here's another good one about #longcovid
https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1517314318748078081
Not to pick on one person, but this is a nice representative sample:
"I've been trying to avoid infection but
@CDCDirector
@POTUS
+ other rich people don't care if the less wealthy become more chronically ill/die, so they've removed mask mandates and refuse to provide N95s or testing or proper ventilation or antivirals quickly."