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  1. 21 May '14 21:45 / 1 edit
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/21/women-violent-crime-fiction-explore-threats

    "Why women are hooked on violent crime fiction: Reading about grisly sex
    murders and mutilations is a safe way to explore the threats we sense in
    the world around us."
    --Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett (21 May 2014)

    (Ms Cosslett says she was 'violently attacked' yet 'got away' in 2010.)

    "According to several crime writers this week, women love reading about other
    women being murdered....I don't enjoy it necessarily, but I do find it compelling....
    Crime fiction allows us to explore those looming horrors and what they might entail....
    we are brought up to know that there are men out there who hate us,
    and who would like to hurt us, and we are taught to fear them."
    --Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett

    I understand what Ms Coslett's saying. Personally, I read little fiction and
    no violent crime fiction. After reading much of real violence in history, I feel
    that I have had enough and I don't need to add any more fictional violence.
  2. 21 May '14 23:23
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/21/women-violent-crime-fiction-explore-threats

    "Why women are hooked on violent crime fiction: Reading about grisly sex
    murders and mutilations is a safe way to explore the threats we sense in
    the world around us."
    --Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett (21 May 2014)

    (Ms Cosslett says she was 'violently attacke ...[text shortened]... in history, I feel
    that I have had enough and I don't need to add any more fictional violence.
    Perpetrators of violent crime are predominantly men, although not exclusively. The majority of victims are also men, and this seems to be reflected in both fact and fiction.
  3. 22 May '14 18:39
    Changing the subject from violence against women in fiction to that in fact:
    (Yes, I know that men also can be the victims of sexual violence.)

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/22/liberals-brainwashed-rape-drunk-have-sex

    "No, liberals haven't 'brainwashed' you. Yes, you can be drunk and have sex:
    It's impossible to debunk the myths of sexual assault when conservative
    'experts' prop them up without any facts."
    --Jessica Valenti ( 22 May 2014)

    "We're all adults here, and it's not difficult to tell when someone is too drunk
    to make a decision....Let's not pretend we don't know the difference.
    Because rapists sure do....Another recent study showed that men who
    attack drunk women know exactly what they're doing--there is no 'he said,
    she said' sort of misunderstanding."
    --Jessica Valenti

    "...only 4-8% of the US college male population consists of rapists, but they
    just happen to rape a lot--an average of six victims over the course of their
    college careers."
    --Jessica Valenti

    In the context of (usually date) rapes at American colleges, one headline
    accurately described it as 'Rape victims are common. Rapists are not.'

    "I generally advise women not ever leave themselves alone with them (some men).
    Someone who has such a stake in arguing that rape doesn't happen makes me nervous."
    --Jessica Valenti

    I know. I once advised a female classmate not to go out alone with a male
    classmate because his extremely sexist attitudes made me apprehensive.
    She did not listen to me. I don't know if she ran into any trouble with him.
    They had one date, and she never spoke of him again. But he later was
    convicted of raping several other young women. Reportedly, he told one
    of his victims (who was a virgin) that she had been 'asking for it' (rape).

    I would like to make another important point. When a woman follows some
    common well-meaning advice and curtails her own movements and activities
    in order to reduce her risk of being sexually assaulted, she's also reducing her
    own sense of freedom and opportunities. (I know women who decline to
    enroll in evening classes--some classes are not offered at any other time--
    simply on account of their fear of having to walk alone after dark.) So while
    most women will not (I hope) be direct victims of sexual violence, the threat
    of sexual violence tends to make (at least indirect) victims out of all women.
  4. 22 May '14 18:44
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/21/women-violent-crime-fiction-explore-threats

    "Why women are hooked on violent crime fiction: Reading about grisly sex
    murders and mutilations is a safe way to explore the threats we sense in
    the world around us."
    --Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett (21 May 2014)

    (Ms Cosslett says she was 'violently attacke ...[text shortened]... in history, I feel
    that I have had enough and I don't need to add any more fictional violence.
    "According to several crime writers this week..."

    Oh...Kay, we have reliable data.
  5. 22 May '14 19:00
    Originally posted by JS357
    "According to several crime writers this week..."

    Oh...Kay, we have reliable data.
    It's not hard to find women who don't 'love reading about other women being murdered'.
  6. Standard member vivify
    rain
    22 May '14 21:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Changing the subject from violence against women in fiction to that in fact:
    (Yes, I know that men also can be the victims of sexual violence.)

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/22/liberals-brainwashed-rape-drunk-have-sex

    "No, liberals haven't 'brainwashed' you. Yes, you can be drunk and have sex:
    It's impossible to debunk the myths ...[text shortened]... ence, the threat
    of sexual violence tends to make (at least indirect) victims out of all women.
    What country are you from? Your description of college there makes it seem like rape of female students is a common thing.

    As far as being "too drunk" to consent to sex, that can be tricky. If she's passed out, that's obvious. If she's throwing up or can't walk straight, that's also obvious. But less than that shouldn't be a crime, like if she's merely slurring words.

    As far as violent crime novels, I don't think it's the violence so much as the drama of solving the mystery or catching the killer. The more violent the crime, the higher the stakes are in finding the killer, which in turn leads to more drama.

    In short, women are attracted to drama.
  7. 22 May '14 22:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    What country are you from? Your description of college there makes it seem like rape of female students is a common thing.

    As far as being "too drunk" to consent to sex, that can be tricky. If she's passed out, that's obvious. If she's throwing up or can't walk straight, that's also obvious. But less than that shouldn't be a crime, like if she's ...[text shortened]... ding the killer, which in turn leads to more drama.

    In short, women are attracted to drama.
    "...makes it seem like rape of female students is a common thing."
    --Vivify

    In that post, my comments refer to the United States. (I am aware of
    sexual violence outside the United States; it's worse in South Africa.)
    A widely reported claim is that 1/5 of female students will be sexually assaulted
    at least once during her time in an American college. Some American
    women have told me that they were too afraid to attend evening classes.

    In case you have not noticed it, even the US government has noticed that
    sexual violence (primarily against female students) is a major problem at
    American colleges. Recently, the White House rolled out a task force whose
    avowed aim is to reduce such sexual violence. Predictably, there has a
    strong reaction (like against any initiative by US President Obama) from
    right-wing Americans, many of whom seem to be doing their utmost to deny,
    minimize, or excuse the realities of sexual violence against women.
    In the past few years, at least several Republican politicians have got into
    trouble for making absurd comments about rape. But myths about rape
    are believed by Democrats as well as Republicans.

    Among recent new stories, a student at Harvard wrote an open letter
    saying that she has decided to leave Harvard--without her degree--on
    account of the woefully inadequate support that the administration offered
    her after she reported being sexually assaulted by a male classmate.
    At Columbia University, some women have been writing the names of alleged
    rapists on the walls of ladies' rooms, warning other women to beware of them.

    'Rape Victims Are Common. Rapists Are Not.'
    --Amanda Marcotte (1 May 2014 at Slate.com)
  8. 22 May '14 23:20
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Changing the subject from violence against women in fiction to that in fact:
    (Yes, I know that men also can be the victims of sexual violence.)

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/22/liberals-brainwashed-rape-drunk-have-sex

    "No, liberals haven't 'brainwashed' you. Yes, you can be drunk and have sex:
    It's impossible to debunk the myths ...[text shortened]... ence, the threat
    of sexual violence tends to make (at least indirect) victims out of all women.
    Violent crimes include more than rape.
  9. 22 May '14 23:31
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...makes it seem like rape of female students is a common thing."
    --Vivify

    In that post, my comments refer to the United States. (I am aware of
    sexual violence outside the United States; it's worse in South Africa.)
    A widely reported claim is that 1/5 of female students will be sexually assaulted
    at least once during her time in an American colle ...[text shortened]... em.

    'Rape Victims Are Common. Rapists Are Not.'
    --Amanda Marcotte (1 May 2014 at Slate.com)
    I don't trust such reports. The problem is real but overstating it doesn't get it solved.
  10. 22 May '14 23:49
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I don't trust such reports. The problem is real but overstating it doesn't get it solved.
    It's unnecessary for Normbenign to assert that he prefers not to believe
    anything that fails to confirm to his dogmatic ideological preconceptions.
  11. 23 May '14 07:16
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    So while most women will not (I hope) be direct victims of sexual violence, the threat
    of sexual violence tends to make (at least indirect) victims out of all women.
    The threat of violence in general makes victims of all of us. I do not walk about at night if I can help it, there are parts of Cape Town I do not go, and I lock my doors at night. All these are limits on my freedom imposed by threat of violence. I fully agree that women are at greater risk for two reasons: they are more likely to be sexual targets, and they are generally seen as easier targets even for non-sexual crimes.
    I must also point out that appearance, wealth, skin color and other factors may also affect your risk of encountering crime and thus affect your freedom.
  12. 23 May '14 07:18
    I must also point out that exploring violence is hardly unique to fiction for women. Fairy tales mostly read by children are in many ways more violent than most fiction.
  13. 23 May '14 19:35 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    What country are you from? Your description of college there makes it seem like rape of female students is a common thing.

    As far as being "too drunk" to consent to sex, that can be tricky. If she's passed out, that's obvious. If she's throwing up or can't walk straight, that's also obvious. But less than that shouldn't be a crime, like if she's ...[text shortened]... ding the killer, which in turn leads to more drama.

    In short, women are attracted to drama.
    Thanks to Vivify for his candid and revealing description of how some men
    can rationalize obtaining sexual consent from women who have been drinking.

    "But less than that shouldn't be a crime, like if she's merely slurring words."
    --Vivify

    So if a man approaches a woman who's been drinking and asks her, 'May I
    sleep with you, my dear?', then there's nothing wrong with him taking her
    to bed after he hears her 'slurred' reply and interprets it as her slurred 'yes'?

    Would this man be thinking this? "She's hot stuff! I've been watching her
    get filled up with drinks all evening, just waiting for my chance to get her
    into bed. I had better hurry up, however, before she gets *too* drunk.
    Within five minutes, she might start 'throwing up' or staggering around,
    and Vivify says that I would have to back off then. But now she's 'merely
    slurring words', which Vivify says still makes her fair game to me to score.
    So I'd better hurry up and make my move upon her before her next drink!
    Once I hear her slurred 'yes' (or something close enough by my reckoning),
    I'm into her! Then she's *consented*, and I'll let her have more drinks if
    she wants. The only drawback would be if she passes out later, she may
    not remember that she enjoyed the sex with me as much as I did with her.
    But, as Vivify said, getting to have sex with women today 'can be tricky'."

    'Tricky' indeed, but a 'consenting' woman does not always enjoy being the treat.
  14. 23 May '14 20:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Thanks to Vivify for his candid and revealing description of how some men
    can rationalize obtaining sexual consent from women who have been drinking.

    "But less than that shouldn't be a crime, like if she's merely slurring words."
    --Vivify

    So if a man approaches a woman who's been drinking and asks her, 'May I
    sleep with you, my dear?', then there ...[text shortened]... be tricky'."

    'Tricky' indeed, but a 'consenting' woman does not always enjoy being the treat.
    So if a woman consents to sex, and regrets it afterward, is it rape or not?
  15. 23 May '14 21:15
    Originally posted by normbenign
    So if a woman consents to sex, and regrets it afterward, is it rape or not?
    In Normbenign's paranoid sexist world, men always seem to be at the mercy
    of conniving women who are bent on 'crying rape' and ruining their lives.
    Rape is a much greater problem for women than false rape accusations are
    a problem for men.

    Regarding the scenario introduced by Vivify's comment, the relevant issue is
    whether or not the woman's 'slurred words' (to quote Vivify) should be interpreted
    by the man as her sincere informed consent. One should keep in mind that
    she might well have been under pressure, both verbal and non-verbal, from
    him earlier to give any perceived consent to sexual intercourse with him.

    Personally, I believe that if a woman's 'slurring words', then she's already
    under the influence of alcohol--which affects her judgment--and thus has a
    diminished capacity to give her sincere informed consent to sexual intercourse.
    A man should always proceed on the side of caution and restrain himself
    from taking advantage of a drinking woman who's already 'slurring words'.
    But too many men regard their own sexual desires as more important.

    And let's be realistic about how many men like to act toward women.
    Many men aim to get a woman started on drinking, hoping to reduce her
    inhibitions and bed her by any means necessary short of physical force.
    (Stereotypical rapists are prepared to use physical force upon her as well.)

    He: Lucky meeting you here, girl. You look so nice! May I buy you a drink?
    She: No, thanks, I prefer not to drink.
    He: C'mon, my dear, loosen up. The night's still young, and life's too short!
    Just drink up and enjoy yourself! What will you have? It's all on me!
    She: Sorry, as I said, I prefer not to drink.
    He: I don't believe that you've never had a drink. A pretty girl like you!
    She: I mean not here and now. I have to get home on my own--safely.
    Would you like to talk about something that does not involve drinking?
    He: Ah, I knew there's something I don't like about you. It's your last
    chance with me now. There are plenty of fish in the sea, you know.
    She: Sorry, I doubt this conversation will improve with more alcohol in it.
    I guess you should now try seeing if another fish will snap at your bait.

    Is it often foolish for a woman to drink too much around men? Yes.
    Does her drinking excuse a man from responsibility for respecting her sexual autonomy? No.