Originally posted by Pianoman1That is a competely different argument to what you first put forward. Can I add that I think irish recipe sausages taste better than beef sausages, now we seem to be going off at right angles to the original argument.
Part of the "civilizing" of our society has resulted in a softening of our moral fibre. Cut the bollocks off all sex offenders, a life for a life for all murderers, public floggings for all thieves and petty criminals, take the TV's, computers, games consoles out of prisons, 20 years in prison means 20 years in prison, deport all foreigners who refuse to r ...[text shortened]... e above is, of course, impractical and uncivilized, but, by heck, it would achieve something!
Originally posted by jimslyp69Yes, it is a habit of mine to throw people off balance by rambling on about some totally irrelevant tangential argument. Stream of consciousness thing. Apologies.
That is a competely different argument to what you first put forward. Can I add that I think irish recipe sausages taste better than beef sausages, now we seem to be going off at right angles to the original argument.
But, does the notion that we are "softer" (if indeed we are) as a society add to our notion of civilization? Does one come from other? The awful things you quoted were rough justice meted out in a rough world. Are we more civilized because we don't have public hangings, we don't stone adulterers to death ( at least not in this country)?
Originally posted by Pianoman1That leads me back to my original question. 'How do we quantify being civilised?' How can we measure this other than public opinion, historical primary evidence and crime statistics? I think the whole process of society becoming civilised has become more of an organised structure through education, rehabilitation and other processes.
Yes, it is a habit of mine to throw people off balance by rambling on about some totally irrelevant tangential argument. Stream of consciousness thing. Apologies.
But, does the notion that we are "softer" (if indeed we are) as a society add to our notion of civilization? Does one come from other? The awful things you quoted were rough justice meted out ...[text shortened]... 't have public hangings, we don't stone adulterers to death ( at least not in this country)?
I cautiously agree with you however, that through being 'over civilised' towards miscreancy, we are removing a check on the very behaviour we are trying to halt.
Originally posted by jimslyp69You mentioned earlier that we are savages by nature. Civilization must be the process whereby we tame that savage in us. So I suppose a yardstick to judge civilization could be how deeply the feral savage instinct has been buried beneath a veneer of culture etc. The recent riots in London and elsewhere last year would indicate that there are many setbacks to this process, but I would have to agree that more people are less savage now (if that makes sense) than 500 years ago. So, thank you for putting my mind at ease.
That leads me back to my original question. 'How do we quantify being civilised?' How can we measure this other than public opinion, historical primary evidence and crime statistics? I think the whole process of society becoming civilised has become more of an organised structure through education, rehabilitation and other processes.
I cautiously agree wi ...[text shortened]... ed' towards miscreancy, we are removing a check on the very behaviour we are trying to halt.
Originally posted by Pianoman1Lament the passing of innocence? Standards of former days?
I suppose what you are saying is that murder is just part of modern life, so get over it.
And you'd be right. It's just that boring old farts like me lament the passing of innocence, and we yearn for the moral, spiritual and ethical standards of former days.
I would gladly dump London and Glasgow, but that would simply move the problems elsewhere to
Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester etc.
There has never been greater or lesser standards in modern times... the murder rate increases less than the population increase so you could argue that the standard gets higher.
Originally posted by Pianoman1Steven Pinker has very recently published a book-length cogent case that we are now more civilized.
Are we a more civilized society now than, say, 500 years ago? That well known man of letters, Ozzy Osbourne observes: we think we're civilized and sophisticated, but we're just cavemen with mobile phones and nicer clothes.
And I have to agree with him!
Apart from obvious advances in education, health and personal wealth, I defy anyone to put a cogent case forward to support the thesis that we are now more civilized.
You can check out a recent talk of his on this topic here:
http://edge.org/conversation/mc2011-history-violence-pinker
and the book itself here:
http://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0670022950
Originally posted by Pianoman1Are we more civilized because we don't have public hangings, we don't stone adulterers to death ( at least not in this country)?
Yes, it is a habit of mine to throw people off balance by rambling on about some totally irrelevant tangential argument. Stream of consciousness thing. Apologies.
But, does the notion that we are "softer" (if indeed we are) as a society add to our notion of civilization? Does one come from other? The awful things you quoted were rough justice meted out ...[text shortened]... 't have public hangings, we don't stone adulterers to death ( at least not in this country)?
Take a year long sabbatical to Somalia and let us know what you find out on your return.
Originally posted by Proper KnobCan't afford it. We'll have to let you fill us in with all the info. 🙂
[b]Are we more civilized because we don't have public hangings, we don't stone adulterers to death ( at least not in this country)?
Take a year long sabbatical to Somalia and let us know what you find out on your return.[/b]
People have more freedoms better standards of living ,are better informed ,better educated and safer so for the most part we are more civilised than ever. Although give everyone a gun and tell them to forget the law we would be back in the dark ages in a week.Morally its got to be declining ,without the church having much influence anymore where are peple getting there morals from?The state and family ensure there is no dramatic change but materialisim and doing what feels good is the goal of life for the majority.Apathy is rampant ,the politicians are all so liberal its hard to tell them apart.Most western countries have the same media,music ,hollywood lifestyle influence, ,how many young people do a decent days work.They try to do as little as possible and think its cool to be bad to get drunk,take drugs and sleep with everything in sight.All in all though civilisation is for those that can afford it so as long as the economy is ok we should be sweet as
Originally posted by gareth cobbApathy is rampant? About time he woke up. 😉
People have more freedoms better standards of living ,are better informed ,better educated and safer so for the most part we are more civilised than ever. Although give everyone a gun and tell them to forget the law we would be back in the dark ages in a week.Morally its got to be declining ,without the church having much influence anymore where are pepl ...[text shortened]... vilisation is for those that can afford it so as long as the economy is ok we should be sweet as
1) is Religion a civilizing influence? No, from earliest times man has had to worship something.
2) is the Church a civilizing influence? possibly in instilling values, subduing the ego.
3) is the State a civilizing influence? North Vietnam, Syria, Somalia would suggest not.
4) is the media a civilizing influence? You're joking, right?
5) is the Family a civilizing influence? Should be, often is, but too often not.
What are the strongest civilizing influences?