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WARNING: This post contains spoilers from the novel "Buried" by Mark Billingham. If you want to read this novel do NOT read this question.
My questions is this: Having just finished this novel, at the end a young man has been kidnapped by a multiple murderer, held by a rope tied around his neck and the kidnapper has a knife. The victim stabs the kidnapper/murderer in the neck and he dies in the ambulance. The victim is then charged with manslaughter. Is this for real? I have to the think in the US the police would investigate of course but rule it as a justifiable homicide/self defense. Is British law actually that messed up that you can be kidnapped, held at knife-point and you can't legally take any violent action?
@buzz-meeks saidThe UK laws are not messed up at all.
WARNING: This post contains spoilers from the novel "Buried" by Mark Billingham. If you want to read this novel do NOT read this question.
My questions is this: Having just finished this novel, at the end a young man has been kidnapped by a multiple murderer, held by a rope tied around his neck and the kidnapper has a knife. The victim stabs the kidnapper/murderer in the ...[text shortened]... sed up that you can be kidnapped, held at knife-point and you can't legally take any violent action?
It's very precise and consistent.
There are lots of types of manslaughter.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/homicide-murder-and-manslaughter
@buzz-meeks saidFor this type of question it is good to consult the Wikipedia:
WARNING: This post contains spoilers from the novel "Buried" by Mark Billingham. If you want to read this novel do NOT read this question.
My questions is this: Having just finished this novel, at the end a young man has been kidnapped by a multiple murderer, held by a rope tied around his neck and the kidnapper has a knife. The victim stabs the kidnapper/murderer in the ...[text shortened]... sed up that you can be kidnapped, held at knife-point and you can't legally take any violent action?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense
@buzz-meeks saidMy understanding (which is not based on any legal qualification) is that you can take reasonable and proportionate action, so it comes down to whether you can afford a lawyer who can make your actions sound reasonable and proportionate. Knowing he only had the strength left for one action and realising that he would be dead if that action did not completely incapacitate his attacker he opted for...
WARNING: This post contains spoilers from the novel "Buried" by Mark Billingham. If you want to read this novel do NOT read this question.
My questions is this: Having just finished this novel, at the end a young man has been kidnapped by a multiple murderer, held by a rope tied around his neck and the kidnapper has a knife. The victim stabs the kidnapper/murderer in the ...[text shortened]... sed up that you can be kidnapped, held at knife-point and you can't legally take any violent action?
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@relentless-red saidExactly, the UK law considers all variables- or should.
My understanding (which is not based on any legal qualification) is that you can take reasonable and proportionate action, so it comes down to whether you can afford a lawyer who can make your actions sound reasonable and proportionate. Knowing he only had the strength left for one action and realising that he would be dead if that action did not completely incapacitate his attacker he opted for...
No set prison times for certain crimes unlike in the States. Because all crimes are different, carried out for different reasons by people who had different resources and different skill sets who may have had capacity or not.
Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways:
Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill "gross negligence manslaughter" ; and
Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death "unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter".
The term "involuntary manslaughter" is commonly used to describe manslaughter falling within (2) and (3) while (1) is referred to as "voluntary manslaughter".
@yo-its-me - Be nice to have a debate that's not all about US politics in there.
Twue dat. 😉
I'm happy just to see a non Trump-bashing thread for a change.
@earl-of-trumps saidTrump who?
@yo-its-me - Be nice to have a debate that's not all about US politics in there.
Twue dat. 😉
I'm happy just to see a non Trump-bashing thread for a change.
😲
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@yo-its-me saidNot looking for a "balanced reply". Looking for facts. Seems that no one thinks that being tied up at the end of a rope and being held at knife point will completely justify your use of force under the law. Note to self: Never go to England and become a victim.
Welcome to the forums Buzz Meeks.
You might get more balanced replies in the debates forum. Be nice to have a debate that's not all about US politics in there.
It's my opinion that the UK law (although an ass, like all government laws) is well thought-out and considered.
@buzz-meeks saidBeing charged with and being found guilty of something are two very different things.
Not looking for a "balanced reply". Looking for facts. Seems that no one thinks that being tied up at the end of a rope and being held at knife point will completely justify your use of force under the law. Note to self: Never go to England and become a victim.
A person dies violently at the hands of another ... who gets to say whether that was justified or not? The correct way is to go through due process. Get a jury of peers to decide the rights and wrongs of it.
You don't like that? I don't think you'd like it any better if the police had the ability to turn a blind eye on their own without anyone overseeing what they are doing.
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@orangutan saidI see what you are saying but in the US the police would investigate and in consultation with the prosecutor would almost certainly decide not to arrest or bring charges against a person in this case and not subject the victim to being convicted by a jury when the charges aren't warranted. Obviously it is different there, which is what I was trying to ascertain which it seems I have. Not debating the point, I don't live there. Note to self: Don't live there.
Being charged with and being found guilty of something are two very different things.
A person dies violently at the hands of another ... who gets to say whether that was justified or not? The correct way is to go through due process. Get a jury of peers to decide the rights and wrongs of it.
You don't like that? I don't think you'd like it any better if the police had the ability to turn a blind eye on their own without anyone overseeing what they are doing.
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@buzz-meeks saidI saw now that orangutan beat me to it...
Not looking for a "balanced reply". Looking for facts. Seems that no one thinks that being tied up at the end of a rope and being held at knife point will completely justify your use of force under the law. Note to self: Never go to England and become a victim.
In fact the word is self-defence and an article on that was linked very early in the thread. Relentless Read has also given the hint of "justified force" which is a integral part of self Defence.
The point of balance being: each and every time someone is killed there is an investigation. After the investigation someone balances if the use of of force was justified.
So nobody takes offence in looking at a case that ended up with a corpse and determining the circumstances. the author would most probably have written that the investigation ended with a positive verdict for the hero.
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@ponderable saidAlas, he did not, although he implied that it might be the case. The detective (main character) seemed glad to wash his hands of it afterwards, even though he was present during the occurrence. I will just put that part down to the author not fulfilling my needs as a reader in that case. Thanks all for the replies. I was truly curious.
the author would most probably have written that the investigation ended with a positive verdict for the hero.