I browsed a thread in the debates forum where they were discussing how much good the US is doing for the world; how the two world wars would not have ended as fast as they did had it not been for the US. I'm not going to participate in that discussion or take it any further here.
It got me thinking though. It seemed as if some of the posters were actually proud of what they think the US did in WWI and II as if they themselves were to thank for it. That seemed strange to me. They didn't after all participate in those wars (my apologies if indeed there are really old men here in the forum who were actually there during the second world war).
Sweden has had it's fair share of heroes (not necessarily war heroes, but greater). You know, Alfred Nobel and Raol Wallenberg and... actually, those are the only two I can think of from the top of my head (and Raoul is a war hero in a sense). 😕 Oh, oh, of course... Olof Palme... aaaand... there my list ends... 🙂
Anyway, I wouldn't go so far as to being proud of being swede because of those people whom I never even knew. That would be... lying... sort of.
Of all you people who take pride in what your "country" has done for the world at large in recent or ancient history, but weren't actually part of the events yourself. How many of you can say that you would do what it takes to help people in need? For instance. Say you've joined the army and are sent to wage a war in a foreign country. You've been told you're going to liberate their people. It's for the good cause. But while you're there you're slowly beginning to realize that what you're doing (no matter what the intensions) are more destructive than otherwise. Would you stand up to your own people to fight for what you believe is right? Or would you cowardly hide behind the orders of your superior officers?
I guess what I'm saying is, while you can be proud of what you do (even if something as little as raising the spirit among the people around you) it makes absolutely no sense being proud of something your ancestors and/or countrymen has done (now or in distant history).
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Hmmm. Having said that I just realized how much fun I had when the swedish hockey team won the OS gold medal a few weeks back. Let me just point out that, even though I was ecstatic when they won, I'm not actually seeing myself as one of them. I, personally, haven't done anything that would give the swedish hockey team a gold medal in the olympics, and I don't delude myself into thinking I have. (Although in the heat of the moment I may have appeared very nationalistic indeed.)
Originally posted by stocken I browsed a thread in the debates forum where they were discussing how much good the US is doing for the world; how the two world wars would not have ended as fast as they did had it not been for the US. I'm not going to participate in that discussion or take it any further here.
It got me thinking though. It seemed as if some of the posters were actually ...[text shortened]... ough in the heat of the moment I may have appeared very nationalistic indeed.)
Well, it seems to me that an awful lot of people around the world condemn the US as a whole for the war in Iraq and a lot of other bad decisions our leadership and/or military have made. If what you're saying is true, then the reverse is also true. You can't condemn an entire country for these types of things. Personally, most of us had no part in any of it.
Originally posted by stocken I browsed a thread in the debates forum where they were discussing how much good the US is doing for the world; how the two world wars would not have ended as fast as they did had it not been for the US. I'm not going to participate in that discussion or take it any further here.
It got me thinking though. It seemed as if some of the posters were actually ...[text shortened]... ough in the heat of the moment I may have appeared very nationalistic indeed.)
You can be proud of things others have done. If a member of your family did something great you would feel proud of them. It all depends on how close you feel to the people. If someone you know worked really hard for something and it worked out well then you would feel proud for them. I guess in a way a distant war is the same it might seem further away though. The other factor is the size of the action and winning a war for 'freedom' is rather major compared with most things.
Originally posted by rbmorris Well, it seems to me that an awful lot of people around the world condemn the US as a whole for the war in Iraq and a lot of other bad decisions our leadership and/or military have made. If what you're saying is true, then the reverse is also true. You can't condemn an entire country for these types of things. Personally, most of us had no part in any of it.
If my daughter becomes a prime minister and does a whole lot of good for my country, I can be proud of her because I had something to do with that. If she becomes a miserable luxury prostitute on drugs and ends up in jail I can feel ashamed because I would think I am somehow responsible.
If a man whom I don't know and have never met does something good or bad in the name of my country, I really can't be either proud or ashamed. Sweden was neutral during world war two. A lot of people like to take that up as an argument whenever we're discussing current events. As if I would feel responsible for the actions of other people (even if they are my countrymen). I don't. I don't take blame and I don't take pride in anything that I haven't been a part of. Nor do I pass blame on, or celebrate people who were not part of a specific action.
I find it strange that a person can identify him/herself so much with his/her country, that (s)he begins to take credit for what other people in his/her country has done, altough (s)he had nothing to do with it.
Originally posted by stocken If my daughter becomes a prime minister and does a whole lot of good for my country, I can be proud of her because I had something to do with that. If she becomes a miserable luxury prostitute on drugs and ends up in jail I can feel ashamed because I would think I am somehow responsible.
If a man whom I don't know and have never met does something good or ...[text shortened]... r what other people in his/her country has done, altough (s)he had nothing to do with it.
Nationalistic pride is an odd thing. Many people regard it as a positive, but is it really any different from racism?
Nationistic pride essentially lets people say "this group (that I belong to) is better than those groups (that i don't belong to)"
On the other hand, human society is based largely on connections to groups, and feeling like you are a part of something, and belong to something.
Originally posted by stocken It got me thinking though. It seemed as if some of the posters were actually proud of what they think the US did in WWI and II as if they themselves were to thank for it. That seemed strange to me. They didn't after all participate in those wars (my apologies if indeed there are really old men here in the forum who were actually there during the second world war).
i have come across a lot of american who think this way aswell and i have concluded that most if not all americans are idiots.
Originally posted by RookRAK Nationalistic pride is an odd thing. Many people regard it as a positive, but is it really any different from racism?
Nationistic pride essentially lets people say "this group (that I belong to) is better than those groups (that i don't belong to)"
On the other hand, human society is based largely on connections to groups, and feeling like you are a part of something, and belong to something.
Nice post. I also question this and go back and forth - hence no flag next to my name. Should there be an option to have a UN flag or an Olympic flag next to your name - if you so choose?
Originally posted by rbmorris Well, it seems to me that an awful lot of people around the world condemn the US as a whole for the war in Iraq and a lot of other bad decisions our leadership and/or military have made. If what you're saying is true, then the reverse is also true. You can't condemn an entire country for these types of things. Personally, most of us had no part in any of it.
I think many people who condemn the US behaviour in those circumstances are being critical of the US Government, not the average American walking down the street. I know I'm quite clear in my mind that it's not something all of you have a choice in and in fact many of you are against what has happened.
I also agree that nationalistic pride is a strange thing. But that's partly a culturual viewpoint, as some countries are more 'into' it than others. Americans are literally schooled in it - pledging allegiance to the flag and so on - in a way that would be viewed as extremely odd in Australia.
Originally posted by orfeo I also agree that nationalistic pride is a strange thing. But that's partly a culturual viewpoint, as some countries are more 'into' it than others. Americans are literally schooled in it - pledging allegiance to the flag and so on - in a way that would be viewed as extremely odd in Australia.
I heard a 'discussion' on a CB channel the other day, this guy from the north saying, "WE whipped your butts then and we can do it again, bla bla bla" As if he were personally involved in the civil war. It struck me as weird for people to be talking about that a hundred and 50 odd years later, 'my great great great grampa was a great soldier, therefore I am a great soldier' I was thinking how odd that was and then realized thats how it must be like for millions of other people, pride in ancestors making themselves feel like they won the day themselves when in fact they weren't even alive. That must be a testosterone thing I guess, my daddy is bigger than your daddy, so what has that got to do with us two here? I think that goes deeper than just national pride, I think its something buried deep inside everyone and will come out in some form or another no matter what country you belong to.
Originally posted by trevor33 i have come across a lot of american who think this way aswell and i have concluded that most if not all americans are idiots.
So exactly how many of the 295,734,134 (according to a CIA estimate, so you really gotta take it with a grain of salt) Americans did you meet? And of that number which must be over half of the huge number (to qualify as *most*), how many of them showed national pride of some sort? And if no other country does this, then why are so many Americans (of the ones I've met) *proud* of their European/Asian/African heritage? I don't disagree that national pride can be a little weird, and it makes no sense to me to be proud that your family came from Germany or Sweden or anyplace else. But to conclude that you've met enough Americans to form an opinion on *most if not all of them* and that they're *idiots* because of one minor issue makes me think you're merely looking in a mirror.
Originally posted by stocken If my daughter becomes a prime minister and does a whole lot of good for my country, I can be proud of her because I had something to do with that. If she becomes a miserable luxury prostitute on drugs and ends up in jail I can feel ashamed because I would think I am somehow responsible.
If a man whom I don't know and have never met does something good or ...[text shortened]... r what other people in his/her country has done, altough (s)he had nothing to do with it.
You can't feel proud of anything because you have done nothing to be proud of; is that a correct assumption? I'm proud of my father taking part in WW2 liberating Europe, fighting Chinese/N. Korean communists in 1952-53, thus allowing South Korea to be the economic giant it is today, compared to the chithole that is N. Korea. I'm proud of my fellow service men/women who volunteered to topple a dictator and in the process attempt to give the Iraqi people a choice of what type of democratically-free government it wants. Swedes had a lot to do with the building of America, and you could be proud of that as I'm sure one of them was some distant ancestor of yours. With nothing to stand for, one will fall for anything, and pride in one's country, to a degree, is a bulwark to keeping that country strong...
Originally posted by RookRAK Nationalistic pride is an odd thing. Many people regard it as a positive, but is it really any different from racism?
Nationistic pride essentially lets people say "this group (that I belong to) is better than those groups (that i don't belong to)"
On the other hand, human society is based largely on connections to groups, and feeling like you are a part of something, and belong to something.
You are wrong! I am proud to be American, but I don't think of myself as greater or better than someone from Kenya or Norway...Nationalistic pride, guided properly, is a pride that states proudly: "Don't tread on me"....or you will pay the consequences....
Originally posted by chancremechanic You are wrong! I am proud to be American, but I don't think of myself as greater or better than someone from Kenya or Norway...Nationalistic pride, guided properly, is a pride that states proudly: "Don't tread on me"....or you will pay the consequences....
So Iraq Tread on us and now they are paying the consequences?
Originally posted by sonhouse So Iraq Tread on us and now they are paying the consequences?
You suffer "tunnel vision" my friend. I didn't advocate invading Iraq, but since we are there, we need to finish the job, unlike Vietnam. Islamofascists tread on us, and saddam was one of their ilk, even though he's a Sunni....he was the Hitler of the middle east...if Hitler had been toppled early 50,000,000+ lives would have been saved
The taliban tread on us....got a problem with us kicking their ass?
Can you take credit for other people's work?
10 Mar '06 17:36
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