it is well known computers are in general strong tactically but weaker positionally (although their positional understanding is improving over time). in fact, they are incredibly weak in some aspects of positional play, one problem being recognizing obvious things that most players can look at the board and see right away, i.e. a trapped piece. there are many such positions i could give as an example, one of which i encountered in one of my games, others i composed, and one nice position that i found composed by someone else:
Originally posted by bobbob1056thThe rest of us here ussually put something after the :
it is well known computers are in general strong tactically but weaker positionally (although their positional understanding is improving over time). in fact, they are incredibly weak in some aspects of positional play, one problem being recognizing obvious things that most players can look at the board and see right away, i.e. a trapped piece. there ...[text shortened]... one of my games, others i composed, and one nice position that i found composed by someone else:
Do go on...
white to play and draw
this one i found, it is composed by someone else. I haven't checked(u can easily yourself) how long it takes for a computer as white to find the drawing move and realize the game is drawn, but i know it takes more than a minute, and it shouldnt take more than a second if the computer knows the resulting position is drawn for sure. im not going to tell u the move-- u figure it out for urself (or find it online)
black wins with ease
although the observant player might notice this position is illegal (normally chess programs don't allow illegal positions to be set up, but it didnt know this is not a legal position), (there is no way for white to get his pieces trapped there, check and see for urself (although it can occur while playing bughouse/crazyhouse)), similar legal positions can easily demonstrate the same thing. at first analysis, the computer sees white as up a lot of material (this is not the case as whites pieces are useless, the only way to win would be for the king to redeem his pieces by capturing the black pawns, but black easily avoids this). then it eventually sees it as drawn, and given enough time the computer will see that black easily wins. a human player would immediately see that black wins with the same technique as any krk (king and rook versus king) position. however instead of the computer looking at the position objectively and seeing that its no different than a krk game, it analyzes variations.
Originally posted by bobbob1056thThis is what you are saying: "It cannot happen (but it can happen)"
(there is no way for white to get his pieces trapped there, check and see for urself (although it can occur while playing bughouse/crazyhouse))
It's not an illegal position, it can easily be achieved.
And why do you post it in this forum, and not in 'only chess'?
Originally posted by bobbob1056thComputers check every move, humans know which move to look at. Nothing new here.
white to play and draw[fen]3B4/r3p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP2K3/3B4 w - - 0 1[/fen]
this one i found, it is composed by someone else. I haven't checked(u can easily yourself) how long it takes for a computer as white to find the drawing move and realize the game is drawn, but i know it takes more than a minute, and it shouldnt take more th ...[text shortened]... rawn for sure. im not going to tell u the move-- u figure it out for urself (or find it online)
i dont remember the game i played, so oh well. but its easy compose positions where computers are confused if u know the principles-- i dont think anyone would be impressed by the position i composed (its illegal!) anyhow, i don't know much about computer programing but it looks like there needs to be a way for a computer to look at a position objectively, as well as a host of other improvements before computers tackle this area of great weakness, and once they do as well as when computers become much better, maybe in 20 years chess will be solved (to solve the game doesnt mean u need to analyze every possible position, of which there are more than 1 undecillion, but to analyze the strongest moves, starting from the starting position to create a huge tree)
Originally posted by foilthe drawing variation is very simple, the only problem is that the computer doesnt notice the game is drawn (after the extremely simple forced variation), as black can't make progress
Computers check every move, humans know which move to look at. Nothing new here.
Originally posted by schakuhrthe position is reachable? did you check carefully? if you did you would notice that the final trapping move would have to be a pawn move (the only way to get into a position you cant get out of even with cooperation with your opponent is to make an irreversible (pawn) move, correct? then id like to ask you from where which white pawn moved to seal the position. before you say it's easy to get to this position you should check it carefully. to demonstrate its impossible to reach this and similar positions, i will show a simpler position... (as for why i didnt post this in 'only chess' you can check and see for urself how much bs i posted there recently, and i had someone complain to me about it, otherwise i was planning to post this and much more bs(not saying this is bs there🙂))
This is what you are saying: "It cannot happen (but it can happen)"
It's not an illegal position, it can easily be achieved.
And why do you post it in this forum, and not in 'only chess'?
Originally posted by bobbob1056thAh yes, you are right. I'm sorry; I looked at it only for a moment, I checked only if it were possible to have such material, but it's impossible to get it all stuck in there.
the position is reachable? did you check carefully? if you did you would notice that the final trapping move would have to be a pawn move (the only way to get into a position you cant get out of even with cooperation with your opponent is to make an irreversible (pawn) move, correct? then id like to ask you from where which white pawn moved to seal t ...[text shortened]... about it, otherwise i was planning to post this and much more bs(not saying this is bs there🙂))
to prove this is illegal, we must first start with an obviously reachable position: (there is nothing more favorable than this, as white can't make 'progress' trapping his pieces)
how does the white rook get to b2 with all the other pieces and pawns in position? it's impossible.
the reason is that (remember this rule!) the only way to get into an irreversible position is making an irreversible (pawn) move. is it now clear that the first position as well as the above position is illegal?
Originally posted by schakuhrobservant you are; let this teach you (all this material isn't neccesarily directed to one person) to always follow the advice of Emanuel Lasker: "When you see a good move,
Ah yes, you are right. I'm sorry; I looked at it only for a moment, I checked only if it were possible to have such material, but it's impossible to get it all stuck in there.
wait - look for a better one!" (my summary of this, which applies to not only chess, is as follows: don't draw conclusions too early, or before you are certain)
Originally posted by bobbob1056thOf course, Ba3!+..... Took me more than a minute :'(
white to play and draw[fen]3B4/r3p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP2K3/3B4 w - - 0 1[/fen]
this one i found, it is composed by someone else. I haven't checked(u can easily yourself) how long it takes for a computer as white to find the drawing move and realize the game is drawn, but i know it takes more than a minute, and it shouldnt take more th ...[text shortened]... rawn for sure. im not going to tell u the move-- u figure it out for urself (or find it online)