Capital Punishment is wrong - no matter what the crime. Also consider the consequences for miscarriages of justice - what if the Birmingham Six had been executed only for it to be revealed after 17 years that they were wrongfully arrested? Surely society has not become so blinded by fear that our only solution to crime/murder is to execute those who commit it. The whole concept of "an eye for an eye" should remain firmly in the previous millenium. The long-term goal should be tackling the cause of the problem, not just short-term spin of killing killers
Mark
Originally posted by 442Bad people get a funeral. That means they definitely need an inquest although I would like to know what prison guards were doing when he killed himself.
Its been anounced that there will be an inquiry into how Harold Shipman managed to kill himself in his prison cell. Why? Why waste more money finding out if staff failed and how he took his own life, hes gone, good ridence. Im surprised it took so long. Too much money in Britain is wasted pandering and looking after this countries scum. So the general question i ...[text shortened]... is your view on your countries Serial killers and the way your government deals with them?
😠
I strongly disagree with capital punishment. The state, or government, or whatever should not have the right to kill people. Wrongful conviction is only one worry. Look at the countries that currently have the practise of executing criminals. Apart from the US, are they really countries that we want to identify ourselves with? The majority of nations on earth have left capital punishment far behind, believing it to be barbaric. I fully believe that murderers should be taken out of society and punished for their crimes. This should mean prison, for a very long time, so that they are denied the right to the life that their victim could have led, but that is an emotional viewpoint, and emotions should not come into decisions of law.
On another note, do any of you, having seen the recent and not so recent cases of wrongful conviction, firmly believe that every decision made by our courts is correct? And (I can't remember who said it) the claim that Shipman and Huntley were definitely guilty, so should die, you can't make statements like that, what about people who are only probably guilty? The death penalty cannot be applied like that.It cannot be applied to levels of guilt.
What about Barry George? The man who killed Jill Dando? I was strongly in doubt of the verdict of that case, as were many people who I've spoken to. Because a lot of public opinion is unsure on the correctness of his guilty verdict, should he not die? There is apparently a strong case for his appeal building. What if he was executed before that happened? What if in 5 years time we discover that Shipman was actually being hypnotised by his ex-wife? I don't mean to make light of the tragedy of people who died at his hand, I just want to use an example everyone will know.
Originally posted by royalchickenTalk about power.He had power.He used that.You don't know he went down streets and killed and it could have been anyone's door.
It isn't about fairness though. Criminals (in the USA, and I think in Britain as well, and in most countries with some kind of 'rule of law' format) aren't punished for revenge, or consistency, or to support their victims. Criminals are punished because the law officially says they are not allowed to do the thing which they did. So the idea that ...[text shortened]... l punishment is justifiable, but it is not justifiable by the claim that it supports the victim.
The families wanted him to rot in jail.In the past they would have said he should not live because he killed my love one.Latest news is Maxine as got to serve full sentence.People feel sorry for her.Some guy left her a house in his will.She will be rich.If her lies had worked then that evil person was still on the streets to kill more little girls.She should have got life too.Victims need protecting and who knows who is alive today if those guys wern't stopped.Are you glad your daughters are safe because these evil people can not get at them?
Originally posted by misslead'rose tinted' glasses in deed!😲. i am a working class single parent of 2 children, one of whom has disabilities, i study full time and struggle to get by, believe me i do not and have never viewed anything through rose tinted glasses. ( i simply don't have the time🙂). you talk about goodness but judging by some of your comments you'd have anyone guilty of a crime hung drawn and quartered. fingers crossed you never get called for jury service.
He would never have said because he was an arrogant cynical killer of families.If you think he might have you then, you judge him through your rose-tinted spectacles.You want to find some sort of good in him.The goodness comes from you.You are the good person.He is/was evil to the core.He put himself in GODS hands now.
working class hero..jo😛
Originally posted by missleadOK, I'm really sick of your reactionary gibberish. You live in a world where everything is a simple shade of black and white. War black. Peace white. Prison black. Execution white. It's a confusing patchwork that doesn't seem to match up. Personally I believe that everything's grey, everything's confusing, everything's up for debate. So make your argument. Try and reconcile compassionate humanism with simplistic revenge. Or else shut up.
Talk about power.He had power.He used that.You don't know he went down streets and killed and it could have been anyone's door.
The families wanted him to rot in jail.In the past they would have said he should not live because he killed my love one.Latest news is Maxine as got to serve full sentence.People feel sorry for her.Some guy left her a house in ...[text shortened]... n't stopped.Are you glad your daughters are safe because these evil people can not get at them?
Rich.
Originally posted by royalchickenI have to agree with RC in this thread. Capital punishment has it's merits, but is mostly unsupportive of the victim.
It isn't about fairness though. Criminals (in the USA, and I think in Britain as well, and in most countries with some kind of 'rule of law' format) aren't punished for revenge, or consistency, or to support their victims. Criminals are punished because the law officially says they are not allowed to do the thing which they did. So the idea that ...[text shortened]... l punishment is justifiable, but it is not justifiable by the claim that it supports the victim.
In my opinion, Shipman was going to get life anyway, so why do we need trouble ourselves over something that was going to go away anyway?
He killed 54 women (and supposedly, up to 200 patients, or that's what I heard...) and committing the crime of killing one person can put you away for life (unless it is classed as self-defence), so this guy was bound to rot away. I have to say, him hanging himself is a cleaner way that rotting and dying in a prison cell for a good 30 years.
Originally posted by missleadAnd yet today we learn that killing himslef the day before his birthday ensures that his wife gets £10,000 a year pension instead of £5,000, so even the most evil serial killer seems to have a grain of goodness in them.
He would never have said because he was an arrogant cynical killer of families.If you think he might have you then, you judge him through your rose-tinted spectacles.You want to find some sort of good in him.The goodness comes from you.You are the good person.He is/was evil to the core.He put himself in GODS hands now.
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Originally posted by missleadMob rule or what, the ugliest part of any civilised society!
Talk about power.He had power.He used that.You don't know he went down streets and killed and it could have been anyone's door.
The families wanted him to rot in jail.In the past they would have said he should not live because he killed my love one.Latest news is Maxine as got to serve full sentence.People feel sorry for her.Some guy left her a house in ...[text shortened]... n't stopped.Are you glad your daughters are safe because these evil people can not get at them?
1) Maxine Carr, lied to the police, she was charged and prosecuted for perverting the course of justice. Are the terms such as "grass" seen as a positive thing? Is "ratting to the police" portrayed as a positive thing in most of the British media? Does the Daily Mail not love to tell the story of the strong woman who stood by her man, who lied for her man as she loved him (it was only finacial irregularities, only 300 people lost their jobs, only 2 committed suicide as they could no longer pay their bills and lost their house) The whole Maxine Carr thing was that it involved kids, and the media destroyed her. People really think SHE WAS THERE... SHE DID IT... SHE HELPED DUMP THE BODIES... HE MADE HIM DO IT... IT WAS HER IDEA... SHE IS EVIL... YOU CAN SEE IT IN HER FACE... KILL HER... HANG HER. She did nothing other than lie to the police, you do not get life for this. The fact that the current government is changing the law to keep her inside is just scarry. If we had the death penalty in this country people would have wanted to lynch her.
2) Bad and evil are purely subjective. What is the limit on hanging on murder? 1 person, 2..3...6...8, when do you move from life in prision to mass murder? You have a crash, kill 5 school children, you are found to be 1mg over the drink drive limit, its murder, you now hang? You killed five children, you murdered them, off to the gallows. Opps, test was wrong you were 1mg under, sorry we will pardon your name, sorry we killed you.
3) The death penalty is not a deterent - why? When I commit a crime I do not anticipate getting caught. If it is pre meditated then you think your plan will get you out of it, if it is a sudden reaction the consequences of the action are no part of the decision to committ the act.
Andrew
Why waste more money finding out if staff failed and how he took his own life, hes gone, good ridence. Im surprised it took so long. Too much money in Britain is wasted pandering and looking after this countries scum.to answer the origional question, the reason there needs to be an inquest is to find out how someone in police custody managed to kill themselves. The fact that it was Shipman is almost incidental & just means that is gets press coverage. We need to know how he did it so we can lessen the chances of it happening again, because next time it may be someone who's testemony is badly needed or an innocent person who just can't handle the stress .
And to repoly to your second point, can someone remind me who is quoted to have said "you can judge a comunities civility by the way it treats its prisoners"? I think that quite true.
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Originally posted by stokerThis then becomes state assisted suicide. Euthenasia is banned in the UK, if an innocent individual can not choose to end their life legally, how could the government allow a convicted murderer to do so?
Just a thought would it not be acseptable to all partys if the judge gave the option to the accused take life or death (life to mean life) . A inosent person would take life trying to prove it . I know this would infuriate victims familys but justice maybe seen to be done, as with the west case.
It is not for the individual to choose their penalty for a crime.
Andrew
[Hey there Belgian Freak, it was Dostoesvsky (Spelling?). And he said, "You can judge the degree of civilisation in a society by the way they treat their criminals."
And to repoly to your second point, can someone remind me who is quoted to have said "you can judge a comunities civility by the way it treats its prisoners"? I think that quite true. [/b]
This was shortly after he was imprisoned in a Siberian Gulag of course, so maybe it was an elegant reprisal against the government that imprisoned him.
G.
Originally posted by richhoeyOK, I could have put that last post a little better. I'd had a few too many beers, in case you couldn't tell, but that's no excuse for abuse...
OK, I'm really sick of your reactionary gibberish. You live in a world where everything is a simple shade of black and white. War black. Peace white. Prison black. Execution white. It's a confusing patchwork that doesn't seem to match up. Personally I believe that everything's grey, everything's confusing, everything's up for debate. So make your argu ...[text shortened]... t. Try and reconcile compassionate humanism with simplistic revenge. Or else shut up.
Rich.
Rich.