Originally posted by D43M0NYou're wrong about ignorance.
Obviously STANG converts them to ignorance as well...this is a petition to get Bush removed from office...
I've suggested that people search overseas internet sites to get a broader perspective than what their own media, politicians and business people would have them believe.
You're right about the petition.
Originally posted by arrakisThis thread is a copy of the others already in the Debate forum.
I'm pleased that you ask these questions and will be glad to answer them:
1) Do you believe this campaign to remove you own elected president will succeed? yes or no
This is not a movement to remove the president. It is a movement to let him and the people of the world know how many people are against his policys.
2) Do you believe the original p ...[text shortened]... aking changes in anything is to INFORM THE PUBLIC so that they can make intellegent decisions.
"Be part of a coordinated effort to remove Bush. " is the opening line of them.
So I guess the answer to my q1 is NO. You don't stand a chance of removing your president. Staging an email revolt is wrong.
I'm all for people voicing their opinions thats fine, even going out into public places and protesting, but the same futile message soliciting support for a campaign against democracy is wrong.
Bush was elected under the system of democracy which Americans are so proud to preach to the world. If you don't like your system of democracy campaign to change it. You may get surprising support.
Perhaps Americans would appreciate a change to a form of proportional representation.
Wasn't a major reason that Bush was elected the poor voter turn out? (that's not an opinion it is a question)
Originally posted by Tirau DanI herd we hade muc more than usual.. alot more.. could be remembern wrong.. but i know allot of people that votet that never have befor... thats a good sighn...
Wasn't a major reason that Bush was elected the poor voter turn out? (that's not an opinion it is a question)
Originally posted by Tirau DanI'm not against democracy. I'm against killing and corrupt politicians. What's futile about the message ?
I'm all for people voicing their opinions thats fine, even going out into public places and protesting, but the same futile message soliciting support for a campaign against democracy is wrong.
Originally posted by xxxenophobeI'd never miss one...
All i gotta say is..
vote
you aint got no write to bitch if ya didnt vote..
We get to vote once for party and once for local list candidate.
It seems fairer than the old first past the post system.
We have a few Green party MP's one has dreds and wears a hemp suit.
Another MP actually a Cabinet Minister (who is very popular) is a trans-sexual.. she's even a favourite in a TV dance show. Makes it all interesting.
I can just imagine Junior in a coalition with them. lol
Originally posted by Tirau DanPeople say Bush won fairly. They also say Howard won fairly in Australia. I say they won because they bred fear in the population. It's a similar trick the noble class used to divide the population when they introduced suspician about witches.
Then I guess that gives the election more credibility.
It's our turn in New Zealand later this year.
Howard also won by telling people that the opposition would stuff the economy and that he's done a great job. What a pile of crap. He was also relying on people's economic fears and greed and the fact that the economy had cycled to his advantage pre-election. Since he was elected, the interest rates are cycling back up.
Will you vote with fear and greed or with your heart ?
Originally posted by STANGAll politicians do that.. They always have.. I think Americans were scared by 9/11 and voted for Bush because they believed in want he has done and is doing.
People say Bush won fairly. They also say Howard won fairly in Australia. I say they won because they bred fear in the population. It's a similar trick the noble class used to divide the population when they introduced suspician about witches.
Howard also won by telling people that the opposition would stuff the economy and that he's done a great job. Wh ...[text shortened]... he interest rates are cycling back up.
Will you vote with fear and greed or with your heart ?
You and I agree that Bush is dangerous and way over the top but to declare the election unfair because he used Americans fear isn't right.
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Originally posted by Tirau DanThat wasn't my point. People have been trying to undermine my arguement by saying that Bush won fairly. My arguement is that he should be tried for war crimes and investigated for conflict of interests.
All politicians do that.. They always have.. I think Americans were scared by 9/11 and voted for Bush because they believed in want he has done and is doing.
You and I agree that Bush is dangerous and way over the top but to declare the election unfair because he used Americans fear isn't right.
Originally posted by STANGHe was elected in a public election...
That wasn't my point. People have been trying to undermine my arguement by saying that Bush won fairly. My arguement is that he should be tred for war crimes and throgoughly investigated for conflict of interests.
That is a prima facie case that he fairly holds his job.
It is for you to prove grounds of unfairness with detailed, supported evidence. Not inuendo and accusation or anecdotal implication.
If you want The President of USA tried in a court for war crimes you need to gather witnesses, documents and any other real evidence you have and see a lawyer and start the wheels of justice in motion.
He would not have been elected if the American people thought he had conflicting business interests or if he was corrupt. The best investigators are always employed by the opposition parties to find such conflicts... they obviously didn't or he would have been exposed.
There is lots of smoke but I haven't seen a shred of detailed evidence against him.
He will finish his term and live in rich comfort happily everafter.
Originally posted by Tirau DanArticles of Impeachment
He was elected in a public election...
That is a prima facie case that he fairly holds his job.
It is for you to prove grounds of unfairness with detailed, supported evidence. Not inuendo and accusation or anecdotal implication.
If you want The President of USA tried in a court for war crimes you need to gather witnesses, documents and any other r ...[text shortened]... led evidence against him.
He will finish his term and live in rich comfort happily everafter.
of
President George W. Bush
and
Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General John David Ashcroft
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from
Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and
Misdemeanors. - - ARTICLE II, SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald H.
Rumsfeld, and Attorney General John David Ashcroft have committed violations and
subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with
impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights
of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial
executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those
reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:
1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law;
carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting
in the death and maiming of tens of thousands of Iraqis, and hundreds of U.S. G.I.s.
2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.
3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and
locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.
4) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its
government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.
4) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret
and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of
prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and
individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents
elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments
to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
5) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign
governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media
and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public
discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain
weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to
U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.
6) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a
part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an
attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and
threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United
Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting
treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy
any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the
exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.
7) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering
indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without
opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the
discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."
8) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without
charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.
9) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of
detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a
detainee is wrongfully held by the government.
10) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens
who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official,
prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.
11) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have
been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in
response to Congressional inquiry.
12) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right
to public trials.
13) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the
government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not
been charged with a crime.
14) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to
hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary
designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."
15) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by
federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and
political activity.
16) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional
right of legislative oversight of executive functions.
17) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of
the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without
consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the
United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome
which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.
Originally posted by STANGThe thing is, STANG, think about it. They could either elect GWB, or they could elect a war hero, who probably would've done something like this as well.
Articles of Impeachment
of
President George W. Bush
and
Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General John David Ashcroft
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from
Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other hi ...[text shortened]... ture from the Treaty of Rome
which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.