Seeing how much time and energy people put into arguing about religion when both sides (one religion vs another, or religion vs anti-religion) always seem to be completely intransigent.
Given the intransigence, what's the point of arguing? I'm completely non-religious and used to have these kind of arguments with religious friends, then I realized what a futile waste of time it was and gave up.
I'm not inviting an argument here, and won't be drawn into one - just expressing my view.
Paul.
I agree. Although, I am religious, I have no problems with other peoples religions, thoughts, or views. Every person has their own opinion, as do I. If they feel as strongly about their convictions as I do, then if were to get into an argument, no one would back down, so what's the point? We should all respect each other as individuals and leave it at that.
I recently had one of the best experiences I have ever had on this site around this issue. It was over a game and I found that while my opponent and I may on the surface have different practices around "religion", we were very respectful to one another and I left with a profound appreciation for who he is as a person. I also learned that there is much you do not learn about a person by just reading "opinions" in the forums. He began our discussion over the game with "so tell me, what is so special about Jesus?" While this may seem like a caustic question, in reality it is THE question for people who adhere to Christianity. What followed developed into (at least for me) a very meaningful and open discussion where we not only traded ideas, but also learned of one another's personal history. Anyway, jsut wanted to say that I had a positive experience around this and I hope more can get beyond the differences and appreciate the important relationships on this site. Oh yea, I lost the game.😳 But I left with more 😏 . Br. Kirk
Originally posted by kirksey957That sounds great Kirk, I wish I could have more experiences like that. I try to avoid them, but I have gotten into a lot of arguments in the past couple of years, and I hate to say that I was the cause of a few. 😳
I recently had one of the best experiences I have ever had on this site around this issue. It was over a game and I found that while my opponent and I may on the surface have different practices around "religion", we were very respect ...[text shortened]... te. Oh yea, I lost the game.😳 But I left with more 😏 . Br. Kirk
The funny thing is, I live in Mississippi, where there is not a lot of religious diversity. Simple stated: probably 95% of us are Christian. You'd think there wouldn't be a lot of argueing, right? Wrong. The most arguments I get in are with friends that are Protestant. You see, I'm Catholic, and in Mississippi, we are the minority in the Christian religion. There's really nothing to about it other than to leave it alone with some people. However, there are some that you can share your ideas with and they can share their's, and you leave it at that and respect each other. Some Protestants just have a hard time understanding the difference in our denominations I guess. Don't get me wrong, I am not bad mouthing protestants at all. My dad's whole side of the family is protestant. Its just weird I guess. Not protestants, the situation.
Originally posted by genius... and the Freethinkers want to express their views also, and others as well of course.
but the bible says that chrisitains have to spread Gods word, and that whenever it is told there shall be noone untouched or summant-can't remeber exactly...😛
There is nothing wrong with that.
What is important to me is that I want to know more about how people interprete the world and what is happening in it. In order to be able to understand people it is necessary to get to know them, not just their package of ideas or convictions but also how they react and why they are reacting the way they do. In hindsight I would react to certain events in the discussions in a different way because I've gotten to know some persons better and I hope I've gotten to know myself a little bit better.
Sometimes I find it very difficult to talk to a person who's intentions are not totally clear to me. I live in the Netherlands, a country that is known for being tolerant and very liberal. I think that is still true. I'm used to speak my mind in a rather open and direct way. In my country that's no problem. Of course we also have our prejudices and we are far from perfect. Most people in the Netherlands consider themselves as being agnostic, not belonging to any church. Until not so long ago I belonged to the majority of people who have an indifferent opinion about religion as such. That has changed as a result of experiences in my personal life. Those events had a great impact on me and on my life. Talking about my beliefs never was a big problem. It was a culture shock to me to experience what I have experienced on RHP talking to some of the members on the forums.You were all able to read how I dealt with that culture shock. I myself never was an angel and will never be one I guess, but what I have experienced here on RHP beats everything I've ever encountered of prejudice, intolerance, contempt and even hatred and why ? Because I am a very impolite, abusive and bad person ? I don't think so. Because I make mistakes ? Because I make mistakes in my communication with other members on RHP ? I do make mistakes,yes, but I don't think that's the reason. The reason is that I have accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the only true living God and because I have accepted Jezus Christ to be his only Son. That's the reason. Thank God the majority of people no longer accept the discrimination of women anymore, of black people, of Jewish people, of homosexual people, of disabled people, of foreign people. However I had to experience that, in certain circles, it is absolutely political correct to discriminate against religious people and of course they justify their attitude by saying that they deserve it. Of course. They have to rationalise their behaviour. That's what people do when they discriminate.
I've decided, as you all were able to read in the forums, not to accept such a behaviour because I believe that such actions cannot be tolerated. I cannot and will not accept such behaviour. I have always defended that position when I was a liberal, progressive as we call it in the Netherlands and I still am a liberal in social and economic issues, but then it was an issue that did not affect me personally. Now however I've experienced discrimination myself. It was a great shock to me to find that people could react that way. I knew it in a rational way , but I never felt it with my heart. Now I have and it changed me. For the better I hope.
What I'm hoping for is that it will be possible to communicate with the people involved. I want to know why they want to dominate or even hurt other people.
Joe
Originally posted by ivanhoeThat's a little melodramatic, don't you think? Is every case of someone disagreeing with your religion to be branded as discrimination? If you're going to argue about controversial topics like religion, you're bound to take a little flak from time to time. Especially if you argue the topic over the internet. Perhaps you were treated a little rougher than you deserved recently, but I don't think it qualifies you as being a victim of discrimination.
... and the Freethinkers want to express their views also, and others as well of course.
There is nothing wrong with that.
What is important to me is that I want to know more about how people interprete the world and what is happening in it. In order to be able to understand people it is necessary to get to know them, not just their package of ideas ...[text shortened]... nt to know why they want to dominate or even hurt other people. They must be in pain.
Joe
Originally posted by geniusI will take a risk here. As I have read many of the posts around this whole topic, I think it pretty well mirrors some of the debate even animosity in the general public. There are some people of faith who believe it is necessary to promote "the Word" as it is a divine calling. The "Word" says a lot of things. For example: it says to attend to the log in our own eye before the splinter in our neighbor's. This is a statement about attitude and how it contaminates relationships. There are many fine people on this site who do not participate in organized religion, but that I find they attend to the value of friendships. And sometimes I find these relationships more intriguing, honest and fulfilling than some face to face encounters in my own faith group. Kirk
but the bible says that chrisitains have to spread Gods word, and that whenever it is told there shall be noone untouched or summant-can't remeber exactly...😛
Originally posted by rwingett"Is every case of someone disagreeing with your religion to be branded as discrimination ? "
That's a little melodramatic, don't you think? Is every case of someone disagreeing with your religion to be branded as discrimination? If you're going to argue about controversial topics like religion, you're bound to take a little fl ...[text shortened]... on't think it qualifies you as being a victim of discrimination.
Of course not rwingett. You know that I'm not referring to that. I'm referring to the way some people, not a lot of people and certainly not all Freethinkers show contempt and disdain for religious people and the one who is excelling in this matter is Feivel. If they would treat black people or homosexual or Jewish people the way they encounter religious people, you would certainly disagree with those people. It's not just about me but also other people were treated in an abusive way and I want to add that in some cases they were not freethinkers who were doing so. I do not hold the Freethinker Clan responsible. I hold the persons in question responsible for their actions, but I understand your position as the leader of the Freethinker Clan. You simply cannot agree fully with me on this subject. However I can appreciate the sentence where you wrote "Perhaps you were treated a little rougher than you deserved recently, .... etc ". I think this is as far as you can go in your position.
Joe
PS. I edited my previous post. I left out the last five words, because I just don't know the reasons why it happened.
Originally posted by kirksey957I agree with you that some of our fellow believers can be very busy quoting the Bible. I think everybody should be very careful with that. Especially when it becomes a debate wherein it is not any more an attempt to try and understand eachother, but rather an attempt to win the argument. Then the debate will become a common streetfight (See the "Litle Fuede" thread) and then the Bible is better left at home . Some people can be annoying or irritating. That is not only the case with religious people. However this can never be a reason to become abusive or insulting or worse. I think we cannot accept abuse, from whatever side, is being accepted and rationalised.
I will take a risk here. As I have read many of the posts around this whole topic, I think it pretty well mirrors some of the debate even animosity in the general public. There are some people of faith who believe it is necessary to p ...[text shortened]... ling than some face to face encounters in my own faith group. Kirk
Joe
Originally posted by ivanhoeIvanhoe, I just wanted you to know that it makes me happy to know that you have accepted Christ as your personal savior.
... and the Freethinkers want to express their views also, and others as well of course.
There is nothing wrong with that.
What is important to me is that I want to know more about how people interprete the world and what is happening in it. In order to be able to understand people it is necessary to get to know them, not just their package of ideas ...[text shortened]... people involved. I want to know why they want to dominate or even hurt other people.
Joe
Originally posted by chewieI don't believe in God, or much else for that matter. I have some very good friends who are very religeous, which I respect and even envy. My main problem at the moment is that although they are happy (if told) to drop the subject so that it doesn't interfeer with our friendship, my agnosticism (is that a word?) upsets them because 'they're going to heaven, and I won't be there?'. They don't day anything, I don't say anything, but the feeling of gloom from them & guilt for making them gloomy from me is always lurking.
Seeing how much time and energy people put into arguing about religion when both sides (one religion vs another, or religion vs anti-religion) always seem to be completely intransigent.
Given the intransigence, what's the point of arguing? I'm completely non-religious and used to have these kind of arguments with religious friends, then I realized what a ...[text shortened]... not inviting an argument here, and won't be drawn into one - just expressing my view.
Paul.
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Originally posted by chewieMy way of looking at it, is that a Christian would generally have good motives for trying to convert an Atheist, as a Christian will believe that the person's life will be better if converted. However Atheists don't usually think that their lives are better than Christians (although they don't think they are worse either) - so why should an Atheist try to convert a Christian? There is a certainly good chance that the Christian's fun in life would decrease if he became convinced that God did not exist.
Seeing how much time and energy people put into arguing about religion when both sides (one religion vs another, or religion vs anti-religion) always seem to be completely intransigent.
Given the intransigence, what's the point of arguin ...[text shortened]... , and won't be drawn into one - just expressing my view.
Paul.
So Atheists should expect Christians to start religious arguments with them. However a good Atheist should not start religious arguments with Christians.
I agree with Chewie about the futility of arguing, but mutually respectful debate is a whole different matter. In debates, though rarely, I have seen shifting of opinions, and in one instance an outright reversal of world view after a gruesome month-long debate. (I know, I've done a lot of debating! 🙂 )
But even aside from that, respectful exchange of opinions does tend to insert grays into world views that may have been too black and white, and may promote understanding of (if not agreement with) differing world views. It's difficult to vilify a group of people because of their world view when you understand the reasons behind their thoughts, and have discussed with them rationally.
Some of the religion discussion here though has taken on unproductive and unpleasant tones - I am impressed with Feivel's biblical knowledge, and do think that he could probably construct some truly impressive arguments, but his presentation could certainly benefit from a less abbrasive approach. In a debate, if you think you can pound your opposition to the ground with logical arguments, do it politely. It's much more effective that way. 😀
Often regardless of the strength of arguments, debates are lost (in the eyes of the audience), at the moment frustration gets the better of civility.
-Jarno