Originally posted by dfm65May I suggest you take a wee peek here:
Terrorist groups need 'friendly' countries in which they are relatively free, or even encouraged to prosper and grow - to recruit new members, to train them, store weapons in, plan operations from, and so on.
http://www.soaw.org/new/type.php?type=8
This is the School of the Americas, now called: Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.
Men are trained here by the US (it's in the State of Georgia) to torture and kill.
The men trained here are some of the most notorius murderers in their own countries. They form para-military groups, assissinate politicians (and trade unionists and priests) and slaughter civilians.
It's not that I want to shower you in propaganda, but the US fits the above mentioned description.
Originally posted by dfm65So, Spain should invade the Basque country (like they haven't already), the UK should have invaded Ireland to defeat the IRA. Who should Germany and Italy have invaded to deal with the Red Brigades? Complete Nonsense.
I disagree. Terrorist groups need 'friendly' countries in which they are relatively free, or even encouraged to prosper and grow - to recruit new members, to train them, store weapons in, plan operations from, and so on. Al-Qaeda used Afghanistan extensively for these purposes. ETA uses Basque territory. Taking away these safe havens will make it more diffic ...[text shortened]... Italy stand as examples of what can be achieved with the 'war now - rebuild later' approach...
In the real world, things are not like this. Its not some kind of western, where the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys wear black hats, and killing the bad guys solves everything.
Beidleid für alle Beteiligten ...
I'm feeling deeply sorry for all people killed and injured and for those mourning about the killed and injured ...
Without wanting to sound biblical or something, but what has this world come to ?? I'm just glad not to live in a big city otherwise I wouldn't get any sleep at all anymore
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Originally posted by dfm65Beware, the examples you give may disprove your own argument, if the bombings in Madrid turn out to be caused by a markedly un-hindered Al-Qaeda.
I disagree. Terrorist groups need 'friendly' countries in which they are relatively free, or even encouraged to prosper and grow - to recruit new members, to train them, store weapons in, plan operations from, and so on. Al-Qaeda used Afghanistan extensively for these purposes. ETA uses Basque territory. Taking away these safe havens will make it more diffic ...[text shortened]... Italy stand as examples of what can be achieved with the 'war now - rebuild later' approach...
I believe that Colonel Gadaffi has stated that he bought the nuclear centrifuges he has given to the US from Pakistan. Are you suggesting that Pakistan should be erased from the map to stop this trade?
Originally posted by nook7Then we are still back to the act of being adults. We (all those plus 19 more) did prop up Iraq against Iran. That was a mistake. Are you saying that adults are not required to repair their mistakes, once it becomes evident that those mistakes killed another hundred thousand people? that is what it sounds like.
While we may not agree on many things , l enjoy your responses. You have a great deal of emotion (serious or otherwise) in your posts.
i find it interesting when people put words in others mouths. You want answers to how l feel sure. For starters you ask what l would do , ala John Kerry.
There would be no need to go to Iraq , because Sadamm would not hav ...[text shortened]... tion to at least take a stand , yet l question the methods they are using.
Cheers,
Martin
You say that if you were the pres. "I would not involve my country in activity that have gone on. Simple. Clean hands, clean conscience, not a hypocrite."
WELL, I SHOULD SAY SO. SOUND LIKE YOU WOULD DO NOTHING, ALWAYS. You would be so squeeky clean you would sound squishy while you ran to hide everytime the phone rang.
As for putting words in your mouth, examine it really well, and you will see that my effort was to put thoughts in your head, not words in your mouth. There is a big difference, though I can see you will never have the joy of that realization.
Again you prove it by "I do not support Saddam or any other dictator" then state "that hold power by unjust means." Try to realize that a dictator is so called because there is NO ELECTIVE PROCESS. By definition, there is no such thing as a "legal" dictator. Is there? Think about that real hard.
So you are for letting the terrorists who killed all these people in Spain and indeed, many places, off without trying to interfere with them? By definition, if we try to get to them and punish or kill them, we must "get involved in the affairs of other nations". Don't we? They are based in every country in the world. Rather difficult to get them if you don't pursue them. Isn't it? But then, seeing your leadership qualities, I am sure that if you were in charge, the terrorists would just pay their way to your door and surrender. You are such a reasonable fellow. Yea, on second thought, that is what they would do. I apologize for questioning your reasoning powers. I forgot about your ability to attract and disarm terrorists by using your powers of reasoning. My mistake. Sorry.
Oh, and Wow! We caused Islam and the Caliphate and it's all our fault! Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure the families of the dead in Madrid will be pleased to know that if they are willing to return to the seventh century and dress their women in burka'a and become subjects to Islamic law, that there will never be another attack. Makes my heart just sing that you have an answer to it all.
Finally. Please don't lie. You don't admire anything the US is doing. You are not capable of elementary reasoning. How could you admire courage?
Originally posted by VargThere is no reason, in my opinion, why people on the forums, moderators included, need to endure insults, taunting, patronization, ridicule, profanity etc etc from the one who shall remain nameless.
Can't this wanker be banned? He doesn't play chess, he just insults people on the forums.
There is no reason, in my opinion, why the one who shall remain nameless cannot conduct himself to at least a minimal degree of civilized behaviour on these forums.
In friendship,
prad
Originally posted by iamatigerEven if the Madrid bombing were perpetrated by al-qaeda, it does not disprove my argument. I never said that terrorist groups can't maintain cells in, and launch attacks in, countries run by governments hostile to them. obviously they can and do. but their operations are made easier if they have a 'friendly' environment to operate in. if it is al-qaeda, let's see where the perpetrators were trained etc.
Beware, the examples you give may disprove your own argument, if the bombings in Madrid turn out to be caused by a markedly un-hindered Al-Qaeda.
I believe that Colonel Gadaffi has stated that he bought the nuclear centrifuges he has given to the US from Pakistan. Are you suggesting that Pakistan should be erased from the map to stop this trade?
with regard to Pakistan, i'm not advocating that anywhere be 'erased from the map'. read my post again, and you'll see that i advocate more effort to re-building a democratic, prosperous Afghanistan and Iraq, and that i favour regime change in states that support terrorism, if no other solution is available. this is a matter of self-defence by the West, which is clearly under attack.
Pakistan is an interesting case, in that Musharaff seems to be moving against terrorism, but the border region with Afghanistan seems to be largely out of government control. However, Pakistan seems to be able to devote enough manpower to defend its border in Kashmir against the Indian Army, so maybe he really is not being as co-operative as he appears. He came to power via a coup, and he has to beware another by fundamental Islam elements in the army.
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Originally posted by dfm65The reason i thought your argument was at risk, was that the activity of ETA (without this atrocity) would seem roughly proportional to how hard the Spanish govenrment is trying to control ETA. This is similar to the behaviour of the IRA which has become a much weaker force for terror since it's political wing was allowed to run for elections to rule Ireland.
Even if the Madrid bombing were perpetrated by al-qaeda, it does not disprove my argument. I never said that terrorist groups can't maintain cells in, and launch attacks in, countries run by governments hostile to them. obviously they can and do. but their operations are made easier if they have a 'friendly' environment to operate in. if it is al-qaeda, let ...[text shortened]... ame to power via a coup, and he has to beware another by fundamental Islam elements in the army.
My opinion is that terrorism feeds on oppression, the more one tries to subdue it by force, the stronger it will grow.
Originally posted by iamatigerYour quite right Tiger, the only problem is that America needs to shoot off a load of missiles, cos if they don't, they can't justify buying any more. Bush succeded in raising the amount of public money going into his armed forces budget, i forget how much but it was massive. This is necissary to an extent, im no economist but i have heard that America has to go to war every ten years or so, otherwise their economy suffers. With the extra money he has to spend he can develop his missile defense plan. He hasn't beaten terrorism but he has made a lot of money for a lot of arms companies, not to mention his Oil buddies back home.
The British Government achieved no lasting success with the IRA using military force and was never likely to. The only feasible and reasonably direct ways to tackle terrorism are via politics, economics and religion - not via missiles, soldiers or any other kind of military force.
Originally posted by iamatigerI think that's a pretty good point. Certainly, if were not true to a large extent, empires would not have come and gone witth the frequency that they have throughout history.
My opinion is that terrorism feeds on oppression, the more one tries to subdue it by force, the stronger it will grow.
In friendship,
prad
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Originally posted by iamatigerare you arguing that 1. terrorism grows stronger in proportion to the strength of attempts to contain/subdue it, and 2. therefore, governments should not try to contain/subdue terrorism?
The reason i thought your argument was at risk, was that the activity of ETA (without this atrocity) would seem roughly proportional to how hard the Spanish govenrment is trying to control ETA. This is similar to the behaviour of the IRA ...[text shortened]... e more one tries to subdue it by force, the stronger it will grow.
as you can tell by my earlier posts, i disagree with 1. this question can be decided empirically. since you mention the IRA, let's look more closely at the facts there, since you seem to be claiming a causal link between decreased terrorist activity on their part and accession to one of their demands.
but say your claim is valid, let's consider strategy. if we give terrorists what they want in exchange for peace, we are sending a strong message to other political activists that terrorism is an effective weapon against the west. I think a policy of not negotiating with terrorists would be more painful in the short term, but less so in the long term. make it clear that terrorism doesn't pay, and people will stop doing it.
a possible exception to this is those poor Islamic dopes who are persuaded that immediate entry to paradise is guaranteed to martyrs. this is not intended as a slight against the Islamic religion, but really, the uneducated may have some excuse to swallow those kinds of ideas, but for educated people, such as the September 11 bombers?
Originally posted by RedmikeIn case you haven't heard, Basque is already part of Spain, so Spain can't invade it as such. And England invaded northern Ireland a long time ago, and NI is part of the UK, so again it cant be invaded in a technical sense. still, it ramians true that ETA and the IRA gain their strength from support from these areas. The solution, as you point out is more difficult, since democratic countries can't wage war with a part of themselves. However, the solution in principle remains the same, even if it has to be more finessed than an actual invasion: pour enough force, intelligence, resources and so on into the affected area. certainly it can be argued that ETA and the IRA continue to exist - this doesn't mean the solution is wrong - merely that it has not been implemented effectively.
So, Spain should invade the Basque country (like they haven't already), the UK should have invaded Ireland to defeat the IRA. Who should Germany and Italy have invaded to deal with the Red Brigades? Complete Nonsense.
In the real world, things are not like this. Its not some kind of western, where the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys wear black hats, and killing the bad guys solves everything.
Originally posted by AcolyteAs someone who grew up in Omagh and where my parents still live Iam reduced to tears once again by the cold callousness of bastards to claim to be carrying out this atrocity for whatever reason--No reason can justify this just as no-one can justify the Omagh atrocity for any reason. All it does is cause heartache,sadness and loss. My family lost lifelong friends in Omagh and I can only guess as to how those poor residents of Madrid and all of Spain must feel. My Dad was in town the day Omagh was devastated, He is an old man now and to have to relive his memories of what he saw is unforgivable. Only recently did he tell me what he saw and if I told you guys the moderators would pull this post. No-one should have to suffer and re-suffer this. To all peace lovers throughout the world shun,disown these bastards, people know who do these things , For the love of God hand them over.
I would have thought the fact that they'd killed ca 800 people before this would have turned the world against them! This is like the Omagh bombing, unprecedented death count but otherwise business as usual for these murderous extremists.
YOURS IN PEACE,
Peter x