this thread was actually a result of StarValleyWy's post in another thread where he wrote the following:
How does this mysterious mind thing perceive these never ending
ows and make them past and surety of future? Does it operate into the quantum nature of the universe? Very interesting research being done by University of Arizona Quantum Mind Group.
it is indeed interesting to contemplate to what extent our mental processes are created by quantum phenomena. the brain's synaptic structure led to the development of computational neural networks (which Dr Soong needed in order to build Data), but this is delving even deeper into the physics of mental process.
there is plenty of stuff on the web about this, but here is an excerpt from a quantum mind conference abstract:
Could quantum information be the key to understanding consciousness? Will the study of consciousness enable quantum information technology? The nature of consciousness and its place in the universe remain mysterious. Classical models view consciousness as computation among the brain's neurons but fail to address its enigmatic features. At the same time quantum processes (superposition of states, nonlocality, entanglement,) also remain mysterious, yet are being harnessed in revolutionary information technologies (quantum computation, quantum cryptography and quantum teleportation.)
might be interesting to discuss some of this.
thanks StarValleyWy for initiating this!
I am sure that this is not the direction you want this thread to go, but modern man lives with the tension between being on the verge of understanding consciousness ( everything from the human genome and all the things you list that I don't understand) and being completely ignorant of and unwilling to address his unconscious and his shadow. Kirk
Originally posted by kirksey957it will go where it will, but i think what you have written is very true: understanding and denial are 2 extremes that may never find resolution. ((btw kirk, your question about logos the relationship to persian carpets was answered in the thread you asked it in - canadian dream clan whatever))
I am sure that this is not the direction you want this thread to go ..
Originally posted by pradtf(It's a holliday in US... Memorial day... so i'm into beer # 12. Please forgive any real bad errors)
this thread was actually a result of StarValleyWy's post in another thread where he wrote the following:
How does this mysterious mind thing perceive these never ending
ows and make them past and surety of future? Does it operate into the quantum nature of the universe? Very interesting research being done by University of Arizona Quantum Mind Group.
...[text shortened]...
might be interesting to discuss some of this.
thanks StarValleyWy for initiating this!
As you might have noticed... I wish to be known as "The Quantum Bump". I have thought about the "mind" problem a great deal. I try not to use verbose terms, and this is my thinking entirely. 'Mind' (my definition) is just a "machine that intercepts information from everywhere/everywhen using 5 senses ... makes it "now"... stores it into "quantum space-mind" so that ...(and this is the important part) ... WE PERCEIVE NOW, PAST AND FUTURE.
Have you ever considered what a mystery "now, the past, and the future" (taken as an object of reality) is? If not... try to do so now.
I view "future" as a dust storm in the desert, a chiracco if you will ... unrolling toward us... never ending... It is unknown. We are IN THE UNIVERSE so we have no effect upon it. Each processed "thing" by the mind is a "quanta", a photograph of the 5 senses... stored mysteriously into "mind". Consider... light leaves a quasar 10 billion years ago. It only becomes "real" to ANY PARTICULAR MIND when it is apprehended by the senses... and stored into "mind". The "present" has no substance. It exists only for 1 single quantum time lapse (estimated by me as 10 ^ - 64 seconds). Future is the storm... it is more real than we are yet is is "unknown". This is really, really strange, but "the past doesn't exit, except as imagination". I dare anyone to prove that it does "physically" exist. It only exists in "mind as imagination". I made a metaphor to royalchicken that the future "something divided by zero or anything divided by infinity", or "undefined". The metaphor for the past is "the square root of minus one"... imaginary. That is what gives us a reason to be "intelligences". There is this mystery called future. It is not self evident. It is a quantum mystery.
Definition: Reality is that set of datum that arrives at a "mind" from anywhere/when, stored into a quantum state, creating a past, a now and a future.
For my dog, Zabu... Reality is the choise of running to bark at a dog passing by or continuing to be petted by me on the couch.
For Me... Reality is all "moments". I have a "time sense". She doesn't.
My time sense allows me a beautiful gift.... that is "now, the past and the future..."
(please don't bonk me too badly. I am now on beer # 13) Mike
Originally posted by kirksey957You made me ponder long and hard. It is a deep question you pose. I'm not qualified to answer. I feel the same when playing a game with royalchicken. Do you know how smart that kid is? It blows me away. To your post. You are wrong in the sense you don't think i want to hear your point of view. I will just say that we all have one thing in common. "If you are in the top 1 percent of understanding... on any single subject known to mankind.... there are probably 6 million humans smarter than you on that subject.".... <quoted from a famous beer drinker... me>
I am sure that this is not the direction you want this thread to go, but modern man lives with the tension between being on the verge of understanding consciousness ( everything from the human genome and all the things you list that I don't understand) and being completely ignorant of and unwilling to address his unconscious and his shadow. Kirk
Originally posted by StarValleyWyinteresting stuff, mike or quantum bump as you wish! looks like your quanta have been busy tonight !
Have you ever considered what a mystery "now, the past, and the future" (taken as an object of reality) is? If not... try to do so now.
it seems to me that only the present may exist the past and future don't - but then i guess that depends on what we mean by exists or what existence really is.
then there is the notion of quantized time in which each instance exists (that word again) forever (whatever that may mean).
🙄
10^-64..sounds acceptable, but dangerous as hell. The primary skeleton of most mathematical models of the universe, which along with empirical observation forms the two-pronged weapon known as physics, is analysis (N&L's calculus and its numerous spawn). Analysis fundamentally operates on a continuous set, usually the real or complex numbers. In physics, we see the primary undercurrent (the basic continuous set), being called "time". Time is taken as an independent variable, and manipulated in relation to other quantities by the techniques of analysis. However, if there is some fundamental unit of time, then we have no continuity, and the thing falls to pieces, a kind of discrete approximation of itself. This is actually kind of interesting. As soon as I can kind of wrap my mind around them, I am going to post my reservations about (okay...outright distrust of) the empirical aspect of physics in 'physics is phirst'. Then, in here, I'd like to talk briefly about the interface between the empirical data and the mathematics (pradtf and nktwild had some very astute comments on this). Then I am going to ace my physics final, feel like a traitor to the cause, and whine about it 😉.
Just to bring this whole thread back 'round, how is the study of quantum phenomena supposed to illuminate consciousness? It has become fashionable for people to wave their hands saying 'QM this' and 'QM that', while talking about wholly unrelated topics like Eastern mysticism, the putative freedom of the will, consciousness, etc. ad nauseum. But nobody ever provides the details, all I hear are various metaphors ("Dude, like my observation of a system collapses the psi-function resulting in a determinate eigenstate...so it's like my consciousness is actually creating the world around us, and dude, pass the bong..."😉.
What exactly is a Quantum Mind?
Bennett, why don't you roll yourself a blunt with the pages of the Quantum Mechanics book that you are so obviously flipping through and grabbing stuff out of....😉.
Never once did I mention QM, and I agree that it (and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and Natural Selection, and the Special Theory of Relativity), are too frequently tossed around out of context. However, look past this and read some of the other interesting ideas in this thread (not to mention the drunken chicken-idolizing).
Also, on a related subject, why is scientific materialism vastlymore popular among subscribers of "Scientific American" (and I am a subscriber to the latter and not the former-Shassha has the occasional very good puzzle) than it is among scientists?
Originally posted by royalchickenSo right. I chose "the very... very most minimum" to show a point. "Now" is by definition "that which the universe can show in one snapshot".... What you think?
10^-64..sounds acceptable, but dangerous as hell. The primary skeleton of most mathematical models of the universe, which along with empirical observation forms the two-pronged weapon known as physics, is analysis (N&L's calculus and its numerous spawn). Analysis fundamentally operates on a continuous set, usually the real or complex numbers. In phy ...[text shortened]... hen I am going to ace my physics final, feel like a traitor to the cause, and whine about it 😉.
Originally posted by bbarrThat is a question that i wish i could answer. I can't. It just seems to me that the classical discussion of "consciousness" ignores the obvious. We all have a mind. We all know it is real. But I submit to your logic. I don't think i can illuminate anything. Been trying for years to get a spark between my ears and failed miserably so far. <Please don't "Eastern" me to death. I hate "mystics"... be they east,west, north or south>
Just to bring this whole thread back 'round, how is the study of quantum phenomena supposed to illuminate consciousness? It has become fashionable for people to wave their hands saying 'QM this' and 'QM that', while talking about wholly unrelated topics like Eastern mysticism, the putative freedom of the will, consciousness, etc. ad nauseum. But nobody ...[text shortened]... creating the world around us, and dude, pass the bong..."😉.
What exactly is a Quantum Mind?
What exactly is a Quantum Mind?[/b]Sorry. Missed this first time around. ahem... as per my first definition, add the word "quantum" in front of "Mind" to fulfill your inquiry.
"'Mind' (my definition) is just a "machine that intercepts information from everywhere/everywhen using 5 senses ... makes it "now"... stores it into "quantum space-time <changed to avoid circular argument> " so that ...(and this is the important part) ... WE PERCEIVE NOW, PAST AND FUTURE. "
Please note that i am a master carpenter... not a god. Take it for what it's worth.
Originally posted by royalchickenHey Chicken, if you don't know what an eigenstate is all you have to do is ask, there's no need to get all passive aggressive just because someone uses words you don't understand...😉
Bennett, why don't you roll yourself a blunt with the pages of the Quantum Mechanics book that you are so obviously flipping through and grabbing stuff out of....😉.
Never once did I mention QM, and I agree that it (and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and Natural Selection, and the Special Theory of Relativity), are too frequently tossed around ou ...[text shortened]... of the other interesting ideas in this thread (not to mention the drunken chicken-idolizing).
Anyway, I wasn't claiming anything about you in particular (even though my post occurred just after yours, you shouldn't infer that it was directed towards you), but about a curious tendency to try to illuminate one mystery by use of another. It's as though people think that because we don't understand how hunks of meat can be conscious, and we don't understand how pieces of stuff can have indeterminate and not merely indeterminable properties, that these two prima facie unrelated bits of mystery must each be the key to understanding the other.