Tebow is likely done in the NFL

Originally posted by sasquatch672
You can believe what you want. Yeah I don't go out of my way to experience and embrace gay culture, but I don't hate on it either. I'm a live-and-let-live type. Liberals like you, on the other hand, are not. You must convert people to your secular religion of state worship, and anyone who disagrees with your agenda is marked undergoes character assassination.

Ah, I see. It's you who has the "live and let live" philosophy.

So you're all for taking all religion, including Christianity out of our government and out of our laws?

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
lol Tebow a proven winner? If he's a proven winner then so is literally every player on every team with a winning record, which we know is not the case.

That's not at all accurate. He led Florida to a national championship and Denver to the playoffs. Is there really some reason an nfl team couldn't run a spread option with him at quarterback? Especially if you didn't have to pay him much. The reason to not run the option is because your quarterback might get hurt. Get Tebow cheap, back him up with Vince Young or some other qb with happy feet and give it a shot.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Ah, I see. It's you who has the "live and let live" philosophy.

So you're all for taking all religion, including Christianity out of our government and out of our laws?

How do you propose to take Christianity out of our laws? Murder and theft were in the ten commandments. Also, we have made an attempt in this country to remove religion from government. The problem is you can't remove people from the government. A democracy is going to be influenced by the people who vote for it. Are you advocating our democracy be dismantled because people in government are Christian and vote their conscience?

Originally posted by dryhump
How do you propose to take Christianity out of our laws? Murder and theft were in the ten commandments. Also, we have made an attempt in this country to remove religion from government. The problem is you can't remove people from the government. A democracy is going to be influenced by the people who vote for it. Are you advocating our democracy be dismantled because people in government are Christian and vote their conscience?

Simple. Absolutely NO laws should be made on the basis of "the bible says", nor should religion have any place in the curriculum, functions or activities of schools who recieve public funding.

Yes, murder and theft were in the Ten Commandments, but one can easily articulate why those actions should be prohibited without relying on a religious book. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" was also a commandment, so should that also become law? According to the bible, if a man rapes a woman he must pay her father money and marry the rape victim. Should that be law?

Do tell why one must force others to live by their religion in order to practice it themselves.

Originally posted by dryhump
That's not at all accurate. He led Florida to a national championship and Denver to the playoffs. Is there really some reason an nfl team couldn't run a spread option with him at quarterback? Especially if you didn't have to pay him much. The reason to not run the option is because your quarterback might get hurt. Get Tebow cheap, back him up with Vince Young or some other qb with happy feet and give it a shot.

What he did in college is irrelevant. Ever heard of the Heisman jinx?

He didn't "lead" Denver to anything. The were an otherwise great team with the QB position being their weak link. Denver lucked their way into playoffs with an 8 - 8 record. Look what happened when they got a real QB.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Simple. Absolutely NO laws should be made on the basis of "the bible says", nor should religion have any place in the curriculum, functions or activities of schools who recieve public funding.

Yes, murder and theft were in the Ten Commandments, but one can easily articulate why those actions should be prohibited without relying on a religious bo ...[text shortened]... y one must force others to live by their religion in order to practice it themselves.

I'll open this up in the debates forum, if you really want to discuss it. The sports forum isn't the place for a political debate.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
What he did in college is irrelevant. Ever heard of the Heisman jinx?

He didn't "lead" Denver to anything. The were an otherwise great team with the QB position being their weak link. Denver lucked their way into playoffs with an 8 - 8 record. Look what happened when they got a real QB.

It's only irrelevant because it doesn't back up your claim. Denver was 1-4 before tebow took over. Your standards for greatness are pretty low. We're talking about Tim Tebow and the broncos. There are very few NFL teams who wouldn't have been significantly better with Peyton Manning at qb. He's not a great qb, but he's not as awful as many have claimed. Compare his stats with the Broncos to John Elway's first year and get back with me.

Originally posted by dryhump
It's only irrelevant because it doesn't back up your claim. Denver was 1-4 before tebow took over. Your standards for greatness are pretty low. We're talking about Tim Tebow and the broncos. There are very few NFL teams who wouldn't have been significantly better with Peyton Manning at qb. He's not a great qb, but he's not as awful as many have claimed. Compare his stats with the Broncos to John Elway's first year and get back with me.

Or, it could be irrelevant because there are examples beyond counting of college players with brilliant careers who end up being crap in the NFL. But that's just a minor point that's barely worth a mention right?

In 2011 Tim Tebow was ranked #34 in passing completion (46.5% ), that's dead last among quarterbacks with enough passes to be ranked. That's arguably the single, most important statistic there is for a QB. He also turned the ball over 12 times (6 INT's, 13 fumbles with 6 for a loss).

Denver was winning games with a stout defense and rushing attack.

Yes, compare Tebow's 2nd year stats with Elway's first year stats. That makes sense.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Or, it could be irrelevant because there are examples beyond counting of college players with brilliant careers who end up being crap in the NFL. But that's just a minor point that's barely worth a mention right?

In 2011 Tim Tebow was ranked #34 in passing completion (46.5% ), that's dead last among quarterbacks with enough passes .

Yes, compare Tebow's 2nd year stats with Elway's first year stats. That makes sense.

You're remarkably inconsistent; when Alex Smith was leading the NFL completing 70.2% of his passes you complained that he never threw long (which wasn't true but anyway) - now passing completion percentage is "arguably the single, most important statistic for a QB"! That's a rather startling turnabout in a few months.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You're remarkably inconsistent; when Alex Smith was leading the NFL completing 70.2% of his passes you complained that he never threw long (which wasn't true but anyway) - now passing completion percentage is "arguably the single, most important statistic for a QB"! That's a rather startling turnabout in a few months.

Being arguably the most important statistic =/= the only statistic that matters.

You can artificially inflate those numbers by only throwing short high percentage passes (which you doubted and I proved in Smith's case), or by being overly protective of the ball by taking sacks instead of attempting to throw in tighter windows.

I suppose you could argue Tebow is artificially deflating his numbers?

But since you decided to bring up the old debate, you are arguing that Alex Smith was the best choice to start for the 49ers. Please, proceed. You were saying?

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Being arguably the most important statistic =/= the only statistic that matters.

You can artificially inflate those numbers by only throwing short high percentage passes (which you doubted and I proved in Smith's case), or by being overly protective of the ball by taking sacks instead of attempting to throw in tighter windows.

I supp ...[text shortened]... g that Alex Smith was the best choice to start for the 49ers. Please, proceed. You were saying?

You "proved" no such thing. What the numbers showed was that Smith threw a slightly lower percentage of deep passes than the average NFL QB but not anything statistically significant. I'm not interested in reviewing the Smith v. CK debate since it is impossible to know how Smith would have performed as compared to CK in the playoffs.

But you seem to totally cherry pick your stats based on supporting positions that you have already arrived at. My perception was that Tebow did throw a lot of deep balls including some big ones in the playoff victory against Pittsburgh so the reverse argument could apply (not saying that Tebow is as good a QB as Smith though Smith's early career numbers weren't much better). I don't think Tebow is particularly good, but I find it mind blowing that you use as primary evidence of his supposed lack of ability a stat that you totally ignored in the Smith case.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You "proved" no such thing. What the numbers showed was that Smith threw a slightly lower percentage of deep passes than the average NFL QB but not anything statistically significant. I'm not interested in reviewing the Smith v. CK debate since it is impossible to know how Smith would have performed as compared to CK in the playoffs.

But y vidence of his supposed lack of ability a stat that you totally ignored in the Smith case.

Right.

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php
%Deep (defined as Pass Attempt > 15 yards)

Colin Kaepernick coming in FIRST PLACE at #1, 29.9%

Alex Smith coming in DEAD LAST at #39, 13.8%

Let's just let others decide whether that's "statistically insignificant" as you put it.

Again, it's not "mind blowing" that I put statistics in their context. Alex Smith plays it SAFE, as I've proven.

Me and Andy Reid both disagree with you.

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/06/05/4275799/prodded-by-andy-reid-chiefs-qb.html

Smith’s low turnover rate was due at least in part by his reluctance to throw the ball down the field. He was referred to by frustrated 49ers fans as Captain Checkdown for his habit of throwing shorter patterns to receivers for shorter gains.

Smith is in the process of being reprogrammed by Andy Reid, his new coach. Reid doesn’t want to turn Smith into a turnover machine but wants him to be more aggressive, particularly during offseason practice.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Right.

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php
%Deep (defined as Pass Attempt > 15 yards)

Colin Kaepernick coming in FIRST PLACE at #1, 29.9%

Alex Smith coming in DEAD LAST at #39, 13.8%

Let's just let others decide whether that's "statistically insignificant" as you put it.

Again, it's not "mind blowing" that I put statis machine but wants him to be more aggressive, particularly during offseason practice.[/i]

Using 15+ is cherry picking. About half of CK's passes "over 15 yards" were less than 20; he threw only 31 passes past 20. Smith's advantage in completion percentage was based on being more accurate on his short and medium throws (i.e. under 20 yards)- 144 out of 200 or 72% compared to CK's 118 out of 185 or 63.8% not the fact he threw deep balls less; in fact he was 3 of 9 on throws past 30 yards compared to CK's 2 out of 12. CK was freakishly good from 21-30 i.e. 15 of 19 compared to AS' 5 of 8 but that difference seems mostly small sample size.

The claim that Alex Smith's high completion percentage is due mostly because all he throws is short balls doesn't hold water statistically.

EDIT: Stats from ESPN: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/8416/alex-smith

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/14001/colin-kaepernick

Originally posted by no1marauder
Using 15+ is cherry picking. About half of CK's passes "over 15 yards" were less than 20; he threw only 31 passes past 20. Smith's advantage in completion percentage was based on being more accurate on his short and medium throws (i.e. under 20 yards)- 144 out of 200 or 72% compared to CK's 118 out of 185 or 63.8% not the fact he threw deep balls less; i /id/8416/alex-smith

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/14001/colin-kaepernick

Well, first your link ignores Kaepernick's playoffs and SB game, so it's incomplete.

Second of all, YOU are the one cherry picking.

Kaepernick: Passes exceed 15 yards 29.9% of the time, first in league.

Smith: Passes exceed 15 yards 13.8% of the time, last in league.

There's no getting around the fact that Kaepernick puts the ball deeper more often than Smith, but if YOU want to cherry pick then at least try to use complete numbers.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Well, first your link ignores Kaepernick's playoffs and SB game, so it's incomplete.

Second of all, YOU are the one cherry picking.

Kaepernick: Passes exceed 15 yards 29.9% of the time, first in league.

Smith: Passes exceed 15 yards 13.8% of the time, last in league.

There's no getting around the fact that Kaepernick puts the ball d ...[text shortened]... than Smith, but if YOU want to cherry pick then at least try to use complete numbers.

I never said CK didn't throw more "deep" balls.

What you said is that Smith "artificially inflated" his completion percentage. But the fact is he is a more accurate passer on short and medium throws than CK and virtually any other QB. That is why he had such a high completion percentage.

EDIT: Passes under 20 yards:

Smith 144-200 72.0%
Rodgers 349-496 70.3%
Brady 377-565 66.7%
CK 118-185 63.4%

That's a sample.

EDIT2: P.Manning was a little better: 370-506 73.1%
D. Brees was a little lower than Brady: 391-595 65.8%