Time Outs: proposal for a new system.

Originally posted by Chrismo


I wonder what people think about the concept of "roll-over minutes". Let me explain...

Suppose myself and Russ start a game using a 1 day timeout. I make my move as White, and now Russ as 24 hours to make his move as Black.

He moves 6 hours later and accrues 18 hours of roll-over time. I then move 1 hour later and accrue 23 hours of roll-over ...[text shortened]... unexpected happened that meant they couldn't move for a couple of days...

Any thoughts...?

This sounds good but not quite as good as Mephisto2's suggestion. It's essentially the same idea but you have to earn the right to have a break. Why not just control the total game time by n moves in x days? It's quite a standard model for correspondence play.

That's probably about 5 pennies worth now.

John.

Seems to me this can all be solved by simply initiating a "postpone a players games" feature where you have an allocated number of days per year where you can take time off without condition and all your games will be postponed until your pre-selected time of postponement is reached.

-Bob

Originally posted by Chrismo
[b]I have been giving this some thought.



Suppose myself and Russ start a game using a 1 day timeout. I make my move as White, and now Russ as 24 hours to make his move as Black.

He moves 6 hours later and accrues 18 hours of roll-over time. I then move 1 hour later and accrue 23 hours of roll-over time. Russ now has 24+18=42 hours to make his next ...[text shortened]... ly by buying yourself some breathing space if you are unable to get to the site for some reason.

Sort of like Fischer Time Controls in a way? With incremental time added if you move quicker.

Bob

I think Mephisto2's TO-system includes everything suggested here:

a) You can still use the current TO system (1 move in 3 days, 1 move in 7 days, etc.)
b) You can gain 'bonus time' for quick moves. (Example: 4 moves in 28 days).
If you make 3 moves within 3 days, it will give you a 'break' of 25 days - or vice versa -
Allows you to open a game with a single move, and go for 25 days on holidays, then move every day at least once.
c) TO doesn't have to be claimes automatic. We can still keep the holiday flag for non-Tournament games if there are people who don't like to time-out games at all.
d) Total game time is more perdictable.
e) a true enhancement. e.g. 4 moves within 28 days is the same as the current 1 week timout most of us use but with the ability to take more than just a week off and catch up later. At the same time if somebody wants to abuse the system he will still have to move once a week on average!

I admit that this will increase complexitiy to the TO system and it ist important to make the remaining time transparent to both players on the web pages and email notifications.

My thoughts on this.

Gotti

The rollover time concept is the same as "all moves in k*n" days where n is the number of moves in the game. This has two effects:
a) It stops the game time contracting if people move quickly
b) It allows people to go on vacation if they build up enough credit.

However, a Mephisto2 style time rule such as "25 moves in 60 days" also allows people to go on vacation (even at the start of their games. so it's better). But it unfortunately can be abused by someone waiting 28 days before resigning.

This is why combined rules might be useful such as "25 moves in 60 days AND 1 move in 14 days".

Originally posted by iamatiger
... But it unfortunately can be abused by someone waiting 28 days before resigning. ...

I'd perfer to wait 28 days to claim my time-out rather than playing somebody who moves only once every fortnight.

Gotti

Originally posted by gotti2000
I'd perfer to wait 28 days to claim my time-out rather than playing somebody who moves only once every fortnight.

Gotti

Yes - but you don't have to suffer either of those options if combined timeouts are allowed.

A simple query? How about limit the number of times one can take the full limit?

HUH?

Yeah, so ... It's arbitrary (14/30/45) day T/O, but each person can only take (an agreed upon number, say, 1 or 2) total full time outs. That is: Minimum: 1 move in (a minimally agreed upon time period, 1-3 days, for instance). and option to take the Maximum period of time off once or twice max. Defaults to Maximum time period for someone who is "late" to the tournament, which means the player would have (at best, at least one more "full" time out period that he/she could use.)

I think this solves all problems. Of course, I'm ignorant of other ideas.

Breakdown:
New Game: Minimum average time to make a move: 1-3 days. (adjustable)
"Vacation/Extended time option:" 14-30 days. (adjustable)
"Maximum number of times each players can use V/E option:" 1-4 (adjustable)
"Autotimeout:" Y/N

And an opponent must choose to incur the V/E option when he makes his move. If not, he is subject to the minimum average time to make the move.

I think this is easy, not confusing, and will move things on at a good pace.

Originally posted by crythias
Yeah, so ... It's arbitrary (14/30/45) day T/O, but each person can only take (an agreed upon number, say, 1 or 2) total full time outs. That is: Minimum: 1 move in (a minimally agreed upon time period, 1-3 days, for instance). and option to take the Maximum period of time off once or twice max. Defaults to Maximum time period for someone who is "late" t ...[text shortened]... layer would have (at best, at least one more "full" time out period that he/she could use.)

Brr. Looks too complicated. Why not to use system which in use by guys in real correspondence chess, rather then invent the bicycle.
The idea is to have move rate, say (for 3 days timeout) 15 moves in 30 days and count only the time between your opponent moves. So if you didn't make 15 complete (for black and white) moves in 60 days so one of players who have more lag time therefore forfeit on time -
either automatically, or by request. More detailed FAQ you could see on any correspondence chess site, but you have to skip all timestamp nightmare they have to support. So when opponent makes a move it means hi has pressed the clock button.

Originally posted by ptitz
Brr. Looks too complicated. Why not to use system which in use by guys in real correspondence chess, rather then invent the bicycle.
The idea is to have move rate, say (for 3 days timeout) 15 moves in 30 days and count only the time between your opponent moves. So if you didn't make 15 complete (for black and white) moves in 60 days so one of players ...[text shortened]... re they have to support. So when opponent makes a move it means hi has pressed the clock button.

That's a great suggestion, I wonder what Mephisto2 would think of it 😀

Originally posted by ptitz
Brr. Looks too complicated. Why not to use system which in use by guys in real correspondence chess, rather then invent the bicycle.
The idea is to have move rate, say (for 3 days timeout) 15 moves in 30 days and count only the time between your opponent moves. So if you didn't make 15 complete (for black and white) moves in 60 days so one of players ...[text shortened]... re they have to support. So when opponent makes a move it means hi has pressed the clock button.

You're right. I like bicycles, but you're right, anyway. My idea wouldn't work, as the extended absence would have to begin after the opponent's move, so the player's full time to make move would vary according to the time the opponent moves. Ack. Too many words. I thought it was so simple: normal play time is 1-3 (or 7) days per move, with an option to take one or two extended time absences per player. It's not too complicated.

"Hey, I know I'm going to be gone for a while. Can we set the time out for 20 days this once?" would be the non-programmed way of handling the same deal. Calculating accrued time to have an extended time to move, although strictly legal, may be more complicated, but probably guarantees a certain number of moves in a certain number of days. My suggestion does, too; it just doesn't change (much) how timeouts are calculated now.

Originally posted by ptitz
Brr. Looks too complicated. Why not to use system which in use by guys in real correspondence chess, rather then invent the bicycle.
The idea is to have move rate, say (for 3 days timeout) 15 moves in 30 days and count only the time between your opponent moves. So if you didn't make 15 complete (for black and white) moves in 60 days so one of players ...[text shortened]... re they have to support. So when opponent makes a move it means hi has pressed the clock button.

That is exactly the same as Mephisto2's suggestion isn't it?

I think that was waht Bennett was getting at. Could be wrong though, I have been known to do that.

Mephisto's suggestion sounds the best of all worlds. Not too complicated for those of us who struggle to comprehend anything more than simple numerical operations 😞

Whichever system we end up with I would find it really useful if the time remaining was displayed on the play chess screens as well as on my games.

Originally posted by bbarr
That's a great suggestion, I wonder what Mephisto2 would think of it 😀

As far as I understand it, it looks like the system I was proposing, with or without automatic TO. The question remains what numbers to choose (x moves in y days movetime).

There is no additional 'nightmare' in timestamping the moves. This is done already today (when you e-mail game you can choose move times or not). Only to make the consumed & remaining time visible to the players. And Russ confirmed that it is feasable.

Mephisto.