1. e4 c5 2. c3

Originally posted by Big Orange Country
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 and then comes the point of the earlier poster's d6 move as after 4. e5 black simply retreats with Nfd7. Obviously, there are a bunch ov variations, and there are a bunch of threads on this one Sicilian Variation.

1. e4 c5 2. c3 d6 3. d4

Originally posted by heinzkat
Yes I was also hoping someone would give some transposition lines to the French, thanks

Not that I want the French though 😛

Earlier I thought I read something about line B being an Exchange French. It's really more of a Tarrasch (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5!?) because eventually white will play N(b1)d2. Uhlmann and Korchnoi have had some nice games in the similar Tarrasch positions, but as you said, it's not to everyone's taste. I love the French, so I don't mind giving it that kind of flavor. If I had to choose another line, I'd go with the rock solid 2. ... d5 over the more dynamic 2. ... Nf6.

Something like:



This is a nice solid system. I think Kasparov lost with it to Deep Blue, but improvements were found.

Originally posted by heinzkat
[pgn]1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bc4 Nb6 6. Bb3 d5 7. exd6 Qxd6 8. h3[/pgn]

This is why I will always stay a newbie

Good that I'll never have to play this from the White side

Looks simple enough from Black's perspective, will try it and report back

Good thread!

Why 8.h3??
Why not 8.0-0 c4 9.Bc2 Bg4 (9. ...g6 is OK) 10.Re1 Ne5 (10. ...e6 as in Nunn-Anand Monaco Amber rpd 1994 is OK) 11.Rxe5 Bxf3 12.Qe1 Bd5 with equal game as shown in Adams-Miladinovic Belgrade 1995?

On the other hand, this is the line I prefer with the Black:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.dxc5 Nc6 5.f3 (5.cxd6?! Nxe4 6.dxe7 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Nxf2+ 8.Ke1 Nxh1 and the Black is fine; 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nd2 e5 7.b4 a5 8.b5 Nb8 9.Ngf3 Bxc5=; 5.Bc4!? Nxe4 6.Bxf7+ Kxf7 7.Qh5 {7.Qd5+ e6 8.Qxe4 d5 9.Qf3+ Qf6} 7. …g6 8.Qd5+ Kg7 9.Qe4 Be5) 5. …d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 (6. …Qxd5 7.Qxd5 Nxd5 8.Bc4 e6 9.Bxd5 exd5 10.Be3 Ne5 11.b3 Nd3+ 12.Kd2 Nxc5=) 7.Bc4 e6 8.Bxd5 exd5 9.Be3 Be7 10. Ne2 0-0 11.0-0 Re8 12.Bf2 Bg5 and the Black is OK according to Mr Emms;

Enjoy your conversation😵

Originally posted by heinzkat
Black to move

What to do

And why the White plays 2.c3?

Marovic states that this is "... a simple idea and a simple move: White tries to built up a strong pawn centre. In the past it was played mostly in order to avoid the labyrinth of the standard Sicilian systems. Later on, however, it was played because White started to believe and prove that a small but lasting advantage could be achieved in many of the basic lines"
😵

Originally posted by heinzkat
What's the plan?

Finally, Marovic proposes 2. ...d6 because it thwarts e5 preparing ...Nf6, whilst 2. ...Nf6 allows e5
😵

You should definetly play 2... d5, which is how I meet it, I dont really like the Nf6 line, even though its considered to be better.

Originally posted by Gatusso
You should definetly play 2... d5, which is how I meet it, I dont really like the Nf6 line, even though its considered to be better.

That's good enough a reason for me 😛

Originally posted by black beetle
Good thread!

Why 8.h3??
Why not 8.0-0 c4 9.Bc2 Bg4 (9. ...g6 is OK) 10.Re1 Ne5 (10. ...e6 as in Nunn-Anand Monaco Amber rpd 1994 is OK) 11.Rxe5 Bxf3 12.Qe1 Bd5 with equal game as shown in Adams-Miladinovic Belgrade 1995?

On the other hand, this is the line I prefer with the Black:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.dxc5 Nc6 5.f3 (5.cxd6?! Nxe4 6.dxe7 Qx ...[text shortened]... 0-0 11.0-0 Re8 12.Bf2 Bg5 and the Black is OK according to Mr Emms;

Enjoy your conversation😵

Looks too whacky to me, I want something simple without much chance for White to deviate, the other early variations don't convince me too much either

Now to the first variation you give, which seems pretty viable to me:



I might go for g6 or e6 on moves 9 or 10 though

Originally posted by heinzkat
That's good enough a reason for me 😛

Ok, it is the standard theory reaction, black plays either d5 or Nf6. Heres a sample line with d5. The main idea is you can capture on d5 with your queen (c3 works against him here) and if he wants to attack it with Nc3 he will have to play IQP positions:



Qd6 is the main move although I dont know why, other queen retreats also look sound.

White almost always ends up with an IQP in this line and you have typical play against it. I like that kind of play a lot more than Alekhine like Nf6 play, but whatever suits you...

Forget all this IQP nonsense it ain't no good for your chess

This is a sample game of me playing 2. ... d5 (notice the date)

Originally posted by heinzkat
That's good enough a reason for me 😛

2...d5 seems to me like the move a ruy player could choose. or the guy who wants to play scandinavian or the french. the old geezers in their comfy armchairs wearing knit beige pullovers, tea, crumpets and laxatives. where as 2...Nf6 is the move a sicilian player would choose, fighting back, agressive, not willing to settle for a disgusting draw. to me it seems a bit illogical to start with 1...c5 and then cop out to 2...d5. if you wanna go that way, why not just play something solid and boring to begin with?

I had always thought that 2. ... Nf6 was the right move. After all, it was the main focus in Beating The Anti-Sicilians by Gallagher. After playing it a LOT, I just didn't reach positions that I liked. For instance, there is a line where black plays Be6, Bxe6 Qxe6. Even though it's fine for black, I never got a great game playing it. Jeremy Silman is the one that turned me on to 2. ... d5. In his repertoire book on the Sicilian (Accelerated Dragon), it is the variation he advocates for black, so it can't be all wrong. The problem with 2. ...d5 is that it leads to a complex strategic struggle (if done right), and blitz may not be the right form of chess for this type of game. There isn't a thing in the wrong with 2. ... Nf6 either, you just have to look at the MIDDLEGAMES you reach and decide which ones YOU like.

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
I had always thought that 2. ... Nf6 was the right move. After all, it was the main focus in Beating The Anti-Sicilians by Gallagher. After playing it a LOT, I just didn't reach positions that I liked. For instance, there is a line where black plays Be6, Bxe6 Qxe6. Even though it's fine for black, I never got a great game playing it. Jeremy ...[text shortened]... 6 either, you just have to look at the MIDDLEGAMES you reach and decide which ones YOU like.

Hey paulbachmanfromfics my man,
you just defined consistence a la Rubinstein, which is a dynamic mix of opening preparation, middlegame tactics ability and endgame techniques -this is chess at its bestl, and beyond a specific level is related to ones' taste and attitude too!

2. ...whatever, is almost as an early move as it gets -however it is related with Akiba's "Long Plan" concept. heinzkat finds instantly "whacky" some Nunn/ Emms variations I offered and some not, but actually they are all playable at the GM level -and on the other time he felt that 8.h3? should be seriously considered; 2. ...d5 sounds unjustified in relation to woodworms' Sicilian instict but some GMs prove that it is quite playable; 2. ...Nf6 sounds playable to Marovic, but since he dislikes to offer the White the chance to play an early e5 he proposes 2. ...d6! Etc etc.
There are so many different orders of moves that even for the very second one the CC player should better study deeply some variations through the prism of Akibas' "Long Plan" concept. Magick😵

Originally posted by heinzkat
Black to move

What to do

I always send the ingame message, What the F is that crap? Come out and fight like a man. 😠 Then I play 2...Nc6, I never cared for the 2...Nf6 lines. 😕
I dunno 😞