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2 knights + King vs King... a draw

2 knights + King vs King... a draw

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j

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There is a possible possition ending in checkmate. black king on a8, white king on a6, white knights on b6 and c6; but as I see it black would have to be really stupid to fall into this.

two bishops semes possible but not two knight.

Does this mean that a bishop is slighty more valuble than a knight

C

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K+2N v. K is a draw unless the lone K cooperates. I think I read somewhere that even K+3N v. K is a draw unless the lone K cooperates.

K+2B v. K and K+B+N v. K are forced wins.

On an open board, the B is slightly more powerful than the N. On a locked-pawn board, the N's usually wipe up the B's and have energy left over. So for an endgame, yes, I'd prefer a B.

M

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no, but yes.

It doesn't follow from that at all. Despite that, bishops are more than often stronger than knights

edit: K+3N vs K wins

AThousandYoung
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I've thought about the issue for a long time and come to the conclusion that Bishops are indeed slightly more valuable than Knights. One reason is that which you've stated; 2B or BN endgames result in forced mate, while 2N don't. But, also, unless other pieces and Pawns block the way, the Bishop controls more squares than the Knight. The Knight has the compensating advantages of being unblockable and being able to affect all squares, but also has the disadvantage of being unable to move while maintaining pressure on a particular square.

The biggest thing for me is that the B simply controls more squares on an open board, and all games open up eventually. It's a small difference highly dependent on the character of the position but overall I've come to value the B slightly more than the N.

T

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Originally posted by Mephisto2

edit: K+3N vs K wins
Not always.

C

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Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
Not always.
Just looked it up in my _Basic Chess Endings_ by R. Fine. K+3N is evidently a forced mate, in not more than 20 moves, according to him.

Still, I could have _sworn_ I read somewhere that K+3N v. K is a draw.

???

F

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Bishops are indeed a bit better, sometimes books give them 3 1/4 points instead of 3 points

M

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Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
Not always.
of course not always. But at least a draw😏

T

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Originally posted by jugglingeek
There is a possible possition ending in checkmate. black king on a8, white king on a6, white knights on b6 and c6; but as I see it black would have to be really stupid to fall into this.

two bishops semes possible but not two knight.

Does this mean that a bishop is slighty more valuble than a knight
Yes, that position would be checkmate, but you can not force the lone K into a corner with just two Knights... any such line of play (between K N N vs. K) that IS able to force the lone King into a corner will end in stalemate. It is not possible to force the lone K into a corner and THEN deliver checkmate on the next move.

Capablanca points out, in "A Primer of Chess" that White with the two Knights can only stalemate the King, unless Black has a Pawn which can be moved."

Consider the following position:




Here, White mates as follows:

1. Ng6 h4
2. Ne5 h3
3. Ne6 h2
4. Nb5 h1=Q
5. Nc7 mate

If you take your original position (bK on a8 wK on a6, wN's on b6 and c6) and play backwards to calculate a move sequence which forced the Black King to move to b8, from there you will find that it's impossible to set up White's last two moves which would (1) force Black's King to b8 AND then (2) deliver checkmate with Nb6.

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