Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 25 Nov '06 03:47 / 1 edit
    This is a position that arose in a game I just finished (Me as black)...





    White to play - Is white lost?
  2. 25 Nov '06 03:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    This is a position that arose in a game I just finished (Me as black)...


    [fen]1r4k1/p1p2pp1/7p/8/3N4/4P3/p4PPP/3R2K1 w - - 0 28[/fen]


    White to play - Is white lost?
    Here's the game for anybody interested, it's blitz 3-0...


    [Event "Rated game, 3m + 0s"]
    [Site "Main Playing Hall"]
    [Date "2006.11.24"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "RAFKA"]
    [Black "CMSMaster"]
    [ECO "A51"]
    [WhiteElo "1361"]
    [BlackElo "1328"]
    [PlyCount "54"]
    [EventDate "2006.11.24"]
    [TimeControl "180"]

    1. d4 {1} Nf6 {2} 2. c4 {1} e5 {1} 3. Nf3 {3} exd4 {6} 4. Nxd4 {3} d5 {0} 5.
    cxd5 {2} Qxd5 {4} 6. Nc3 {1} Qd8 {3} 7. Bg5 {2} Be7 {2} 8. e3 {5} O-O {1} 9.
    Nf3 {2} Nc6 {1} 10. Be2 {3} h6 {2} 11. Bh4 {2} Qxd1+ {8} 12. Rxd1 {3} Nh7 {1}
    13. O-O {10} Bxh4 {3} 14. Nxh4 {1} Ng5 {0} 15. Nf3 {7} Nxf3+ {4} 16. Bxf3 {2}
    Be6 {1} 17. Bxc6 {4} bxc6 {1} 18. b3 {1} Rad8 {5} 19. Na4 {8} Rxd1 {8} 20. Rxd1
    {2} Rb8 {4} 21. Nc5 {2} Re8 {4} 22. Na6 {2} Rc8 {3} 23. Nb4 {2} c5 {4} 24. Nd3
    {7} c4 {2} 25. Nf4 {4} cxb3 {2} 26. Nxe6 {2} bxa2 {2} 27. Nd4 {8} Rb8
  3. Standard member GalaxyShield
    Mr. Shield
    25 Nov '06 03:54
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    This is a position that arose in a game I just finished (Me as black)...


    [fen]1r4k1/p1p2pp1/7p/8/3N4/4P3/p4PPP/3R2K1 w - - 0 28[/fen]


    White to play - Is white lost?
    Looks like a draw at worst for white. Nc2 Rb1 Rf1 with the knight getting to a1 next move.

    I didn't look at the whole game that you posted, either, just posting what I see.
  4. 25 Nov '06 03:55 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    This is a position that arose in a game I just finished (Me as black)...


    [fen]1r4k1/p1p2pp1/7p/8/3N4/4P3/p4PPP/3R2K1 w - - 0 28[/fen]


    White to play - Is white lost?
    Nc2....Rb2
    Na1....Rf1
    Did i get that right?
  5. 25 Nov '06 03:56 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by GalaxyShield
    Looks like a draw at worst for white. Nc2 Rb1 Rf1 with the knight getting to a1 next move.

    I didn't look at the whole game that you posted, either, just posting what I see.
    There you go, exactly. Black can play for the draw immediately with(Seems not everybody's found this). F9 analyzes the position after the line you gave as appx. -.7. I think it's a nice little puzzle, my opponent resigned in the position given.


    I deleted the other answer for black, because it wasn't mentioned yet, I'll let you guys find it.

    Looking through the whole game wasn't necessary either, it was pretty quiet.
  6. Standard member GalaxyShield
    Mr. Shield
    25 Nov '06 04:00 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    There you go, exactly. Black can play for the draw immediately with(Seems not everybody's found this). F9 analyzes the position after the line you gave as appx. -.7. I think it's a nice little puzzle, my opponent resigned in the position given.


    I deleted the other answer for black, because it was mentioned yet, I'll let you guys find it.

    Looking through the whole game wasn't necessary either, it was pretty quiet.
    Nifty. Cool puzzle. I can see why someone would resign in white's position. It looks completely lost if you only look at it for a minute (also the game being blitz doesn't help in this case). Just a matter of remembering that once the rook moves to b1, white doesn't have to take it.
  7. 25 Nov '06 04:01
    Originally posted by pizzintea
    Nc2....Rb2
    Na1....Rf1
    Did i get that right?
    Hrm, I don't think white would play Na1, I think he has a much simpler move.
  8. 25 Nov '06 04:02
    Originally posted by GalaxyShield
    Nifty. Cool puzzle. I can see why someone would resign in white's position. It looks completely lost if you only look at it for a minute (also the game being blitz doesn't help in this case). Just a matter of remembering that once the rook moves to b1, white doesn't have to take it.
    He thought about it for a while - in fact, although I was spacing out , I didn't find it either.
  9. Standard member GalaxyShield
    Mr. Shield
    25 Nov '06 04:05
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    He thought about it for a while - in fact, although I was spacing out , I didn't find it either.
    .
  10. 25 Nov '06 04:31
    Hmm I lie black.

    ... Rb1 (Rb2 is a waste of a move).
    Rf1! (whites only hope) , c5

    black also doesn't have to take, and not only is the knight tied down, but white's king cannot escape it's prison due to the rook on f1. In this way the black rook, a & c pawns will tie down whites' king, rook and knight!

    Here's a sample that will bring you to zugzwang where black wins.


    1. d4 {1} Nf6 {2} 2. c4 {1} e5 {1} 3. Nf3 {3} exd4 {6} 4. Nxd4 {3} d5 {0} 5.
    cxd5 {2} Qxd5 {4} 6. Nc3 {1} Qd8 {3} 7. Bg5 {2} Be7 {2} 8. e3 {5} O-O {1} 9.
    Nf3 {2} Nc6 {1} 10. Be2 {3} h6 {2} 11. Bh4 {2} Qxd1+ {8} 12. Rxd1 {3} Nh7 {1}
    13. O-O {10} Bxh4 {3} 14. Nxh4 {1} Ng5 {0} 15. Nf3 {7} Nxf3+ {4} 16. Bxf3 {2}
    Be6 {1} 17. Bxc6 {4} bxc6 {1} 18. b3 {1} Rad8 {5} 19. Na4 {8} Rxd1 {8} 20. Rxd1
    {2} Rb8 {4} 21. Nc5 {2} Re8 {4} 22. Na6 {2} Rc8 {3} 23. Nb4 {2} c5 {4} 24. Nd3
    {7} c4 {2} 25. Nf4 {4} cxb3 {2} 26. Nxe6 {2} bxa2 {2} 27. Nd4 {8} Rb8 28. Nc2
    Rb1 29. Rf1 c5 30. e4 c4 31. e5 (31. g3 Kf8 32. Kg2) 31... c3 32. f4 Rb2 33.
    Na1 c2 34. f5 Kf8 35. g4 Ke7 36. f6+ gxf6 37. exf6+ Kf8 (37... Kd6 38. h4) 38.
    h4 (38. Kg2) 38... a5 39. g5 hxg5 40. hxg5 Kg8 0-1


    of course after g6, fxg6, f7+, blacks king is stuck on f8, but white is still in zugzwang.
  11. Standard member GalaxyShield
    Mr. Shield
    25 Nov '06 04:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zebano
    Hmm I lie black.

    ... Rb1 (Rb2 is a waste of a move).
    Rf1! (whites only hope) , c5

    black also doesn't have to take, and not only is the knight tied down, but white's king cannot escape it's prison due to the rook on f1. In this way the black rook, a & c pawns will tie down whites' king, rook and knight!

    Here's a sample that will bring you to zugzwang where black wins.

    .
    Yeah, that's why I said at worst black has a draw. Although with good play by white, it probably still will end up a draw. It'll take white a long time to get over to the other side of the board, though. Interesting game.
  12. 25 Nov '06 05:04
    Originally posted by zebano
    Hmm I lie black.

    ... Rb1 (Rb2 is a waste of a move).
    Rf1! (whites only hope) , c5

    black also doesn't have to take, and not only is the knight tied down, but white's king cannot escape it's prison due to the rook on f1. In this way the black rook, a & c pawns will tie down whites' king, rook and knight!

    Here's a sample that will bring you to zugzwa ...[text shortened]...
    of course after g6, fxg6, f7+, blacks king is stuck on f8, but white is still in zugzwang.
    Yeah, I definitely think that with best play black should win - but that's not without caution. It's a very interesting position.
  13. 25 Nov '06 10:05
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    Hrm, I don't think white would play Na1, I think he has a much simpler move.
    After:
    1, Nc2 Rb2
    2. Rc1?? Rxc2!
    or
    2. Na3?! c5!
    3. g3 c4!
    4. Kg2 c3
    5. Rc1 c2
    6. Rxc2?? a1Q
    or
    6. Kf3 Rb1!

    So white must leave his R on a1, or keep his K defending the R (obviously the worse option).

    The N is better on a1 than a3, giving the R a little more freedom (including options to capture the c P in some lines). So 2. Na1 is forced.

    In either case, white is hamstrung trying to hold back pawns, and even if he can bring his K over in time to defend, that would give black the chance to pick up K side pawns.

    White would have to fight very hard to hold onto a draw. (Is it worth the effort in a casual blitz match?)

    I would be a bit dissapointed as black though, because this is an excellent practice opportunity - rather than blundering it away in time trouble during a tournament game.
  14. 25 Nov '06 10:33
    Originally posted by craigy
    even if he can bring his K over in time to defend
    This looks like White's main problem. I can't see what White does after Black plays Rb1... advances the c-pawn to c3.. and then plays the idea of the Black king coming over to the kingside winning.