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The following occured in a recent USCF tournament game.
My opponent with the White pieces had his Rooks, King and Queen on their original squares, with the rest of his bank rank clear. It was his move. He wrote 0-0 on his scoresheet, picked up his Queen and put it on b1, let it go, and then put his Queen's Rook on c1. That is, he followed the proper procedure for castling, except that he castled his Queen instead of his King.
After he hit the clock, I immediately hit his and told him he made an illegal move. He then played a move with a different piece altogether and the game continued from there.
Here are my questions:
1) I know that I am entitled to require him to make a Queen move. Am I obligated to require this, or am I allowed to accept whatever move he makes, after rejecting his original illegal move?
2) Am I entitled to require him to leave his Queen on b1 even though the move he made was castling? That is, given that it is clear that he intended to castle rather than simply put his Queen on b1, is he still obligated under the touch-move rule to leave it there, with his Rook still on a1?
3) Am I entitled to accept his original illegal move, to let the castled Queen stand and play on from there?
4) If I exercise my right to (3), would my opponent be allowed to castle his King on a subsequent move, given that he has already played a castling move and that a player may only castle once per game?
5) After he makes the illegal move and starts my clock, am I entitled to use my time to weigh my above options, or must I declare an illegal move immediately if I wish to have it recalled? May I stop the clock altogether while weighing my options?
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesSee below the relevant FIDE laws of chess. I would be inclined to say that your opponent has to leave the queen on b1 (if Qd1-b1 was a legal move) and put the rook back on a1. And 2 minutes should be added to your clock.
The following occured in a recent USCF tournament game.
My opponent with the White pieces had his Rooks, King and Queen on their original squares, with the rest of his bank rank clear. It was his move. He wrote 0-0 on his scoresheet, picked up his Queen and put it on b2, let it go, and then put his Queen's Rook on c1. That is, he followd the pr ...[text shortened]... tely if I wish to have it recalled? May I stop the clock altogether while weighing my options?
edit. but there may be a case to claim that just a legal queen move would suffice.
Article 7: Irregularities
7.4 If during a game it is found that an illegal move, including failing to meet the requirements of the promotion of a pawn or capturing the opponent`s king, has been completed, the position immediately before the irregularity shall be reinstated. If the position immediately before the irregularity cannot be determined, the game shall continue from the last identifiable position prior to the irregularity. The clocks shall be adjusted according to Article 6.14. Article 4.3 applies to the move replacing the illegal move. The game shall then continue from this reinstated position.
After the action taken under Article 7.4(a), for the first two illegal moves by a player the arbiter shall give two minutes extra time to his opponent in each instance; for a third illegal move by the same player, the arbiter shall declare the game lost by this player.
6.14 If an irregularity occurs and/or the pieces have to be restored to a previous position, the arbiter shall use his best judgement to determine the times to be shown on the clocks. He shall also, if necessary, adjust the clock`s move counter.
4.3 Except as provided in Article 4.2, if the player having the move deliberately touches on the chessboard
- one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved
Originally posted by DoctorScribbles1. By the rules you and he are obligated to play by the touch move rule. That said, if a TD is not right there, you may choose to let him play something else.
The following occured in a recent USCF tournament game.
My opponent with the White pieces had his Rooks, King and Queen on their original squares, with the rest of his bank rank clear. It was his move. He wrote 0-0 on his scoresheet, picked up his Queen and put it on b2, let it go, and then put his Queen's Rook on c1. That is, he followd the pr ...[text shortened]... tely if I wish to have it recalled? May I stop the clock altogether while weighing my options?
2. Yes, you can force him to play Qb1 (I assume you meant this). However you should know that 0-0-0 leaves the king on c1 and the rook on d1. 0-0 leaves the king on g1 and the rook on f1 (or 8s if the player has the black pieces)
3. No, you may not accept an illegal move.
4. You have no right to 3, therefor the question is moot. Further, castling involves a rook and king, so presuming that you did allow him to move queen and rook in one move, that in no way infringes on him castling using the other rook (assuming that all the standard castling rules apply)
5. It depends how ethical you are. That said, if you continue play and your opponent later realizes it, he may have the TD reinstate the last known legal position. Hence I would take care of business immediatly.
I just wanted to mention one thing about this:
You said that you punched your clock immediately because he moved illegally hence you don't lose time.
You should inform the TD and he will adjust the clock for you, give you extra time instead of punching your clock. Some clocks keep track of how many times you punch them depending on their time setting. At 40 moves they add extra time to both sides etc... When you punch a clock an extra time by mistake this count messes up and the 40 move rule could be applied at move 39 or something.
To me it's not a big deal but I know some TD's are very picky about little things like this and it does depend on which timers you guys are using.
Originally posted by zebanoI agree with you on # 1 & 2, but your wording on item 3 is not quite correct. Why? Because illegal moves do go unnoticed during games and so the official ruling is that "once the game is over all illegal moves stand".
1. By the rules you and he are obligated to play by the touch move rule. That said, if a TD is not right there, you may choose to let him play something else.
2. Yes, you can force him to play Qb1 (I assume you meant this). However you should know that 0-0-0 leaves the king on c1 and the rook on d1. 0-0 leaves the king on g1 and the rook on f1 (or 8s if th ...[text shortened]... the TD reinstate the last known legal position. Hence I would take care of business immediatly.
I saw an article once where White moved his queen, which was pinned by a bishop to his king, to a square directly in front of the Black's king and announced checkmate. Black, thinking he had lost the game, stopped the clock and admitted defeat. But 10 seconds later he exclaimed that the move was illegal and therefore the game had to be set back up. However, after the TD looked up the rules in the book, it was decided that White had won the game because even though the mating move was illegal, Black thinking he was mated, had resigned and the game was over - hence the illegal move stood.
One other point. The USCF has recently declared that it is illegal now to write a move down before yu make it! Yes, you have to make the move and then write it down. I asked what penalty would a player get who forgets and writes the move down first. I was told that because it's a new rule, time off the clock would be used, but next year penalties could be worse. Yeah, it's a stupid rule.
Originally posted by arrakisThank God! It's been a long time coming. It's not a stupid rule at all. It's necessary to prevent people from abusing their scoresheet as a one-ply analysis crutch.
The USCF has recently declared that it is illegal now to write a move down before yu make it!
Where can I see this announcement in writing?
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThere is no USCF rule needed for that, because it is in FIDE laws of chess:
Thank God! It's been a long time coming. It's not a stupid rule at all. It's necessary to prevent people from abusing their scoresheet as a one-ply analysis crutch.
Where can I see this announcement in writing?
8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix E), on the `scoresheet` prescribed for the competition. It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2 or 9.3.
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Originally posted by Mephisto2For non-FIDE events, the USCF is a sovereign body. It can change its rules to allow each side to have 12 pawns if it wishes. The FIDE rules have no bearing whatsoever.
There is no USCF rule needed for that, because it is in FIDE laws of chess:
8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix E), on the `scoresheet` prescribed for the competition. It is forb ...[text shortened]... rite the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2 or 9.3.
Thus, for non-FIDE events, such a USCF rule is needed.
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesReach across the board and bitch slap him, then set up the possition before the illegal move, start his clock, and tell him that was a love tap.
The following occured in a recent USCF tournament game.
My opponent with the White pieces had his Rooks, King and Queen on their original squares, with the rest of his bank rank clear. It was his move. He wrote 0-0 on his scoresheet, picked up his Queen and put it on b1, let it go, and then put his Queen's Rook on c1. That is, he followed the p ...[text shortened]... tely if I wish to have it recalled? May I stop the clock altogether while weighing my options?
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesYou understand that you restrict yourself to US by doing this? In my opinion, only 'additional' ruling makes sense, while staying in tune with the integrity of the FIDE rules. If not, you play a different game than the rest of the world.
For non-FIDE events, the USCF is a sovereign body. It can change its rules to allow each side to have 12 pawns if it wishes. The FIDE rules have no bearing whatsoever.
Thus, for non-FIDE events, such a USCF rule is needed.
edit: I swallowed most of what I initially planned to write.
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Originally posted by Mephisto2I don't think you understand. The tournament in question was a non-FIDE, USCF tournament. FIDE rules have no more bearing in that setting than do the rules of Monopoly or Scrabble.
You understand that you restrict yourself to US by doing this?
What would be limiting is if I neglected to understand the USCF rules that I must abide by when playing in a USCF tournanment. FIDE events in my area are few and far between, and I would be truly limited if I only concerned myself with their rules.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesNo, YOU don't understand. I agree that you need to know local rules applicable to a local tournament. But they should not be in conflict with the FIDE rules which are the only rules that apply to everybody playing the game called 'chess' somewhere in the world (and last time I checked, USA was part of it). So, knowing the FIDE rules is fundamental.
I don't think you understand. The tournament in question was a non-FIDE, USCF tournament. FIDE rules have no more bearing in that setting than do the rules of Monopoly or Scrabble.
What would be limiting is if I neglected to understand the USCF rules that I must abide by when playing in a USCF tournanment. FIDE events in my area are few and far between, and I would be truly limited if I only concerned myself with their rules.
Of course, if you want to play a variant game, feel free.