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  1. 06 May '10 08:40
    In the following position:



    Is 13 ... Nxf3 a playable line? I've had quite a bit of success with it playing 3/0 games, but I've never seen it used before. At the novice blitz level at least it seems to have a few positives:

    a.) It kills whites pawn storm
    b.) Black can get a strong attack going after this -- though white is up in material each move is often a complicated puzzle -- very good in 3/0 games.
    c.) The material lost is not that much in pure point value.

    Still though, it's probably unsound. Has anyone played this? If so, have you had any success with it?

    I generally play 13 ... Nxf3 14. Nxf3 Bxg4 15. Rdf1 Rxc3
  2. 06 May '10 11:36
    It looks wonderful to me.

    It intuitively feels winning for black to me.

    I would play on as white though.

    Conclusion ...definitely playable.

  3. 06 May '10 11:44
    Originally posted by National Master Dale
    It looks wonderful to me.

    It intuitively feels winning for black to me.

    I would play on as white though.

    Conclusion ...definitely playable.

    I have to agree with National Master Dale here. That just seems super nice.

    This generally makes me suspicious though
  4. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    06 May '10 14:06 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by amolv06
    Still though, it's probably unsound. Has anyone played this? If so, have you had any success with it?

    I generally play 13 ... Nxf3 14. Nxf3 Bxg4 15. Rdf1 Rxc3
    I know it's not book, but I don't really remember what's supposed to be the problem with it. you're thinking about Nxe4 with the discovery against queen on c3 next, right?



    well, if I'm not mixing this up with some similar position, I think white simply retreats with Qe1. then what's black got? a scary looking pawn majority, which would crush in the endgame. but it's not endgame yet. white's still got all his heavy pieces left, and they're pointing at black king. white king is 100% untouched, and black attack hasn't even started yet.

    I don't know. I think black's getting massacred on the kingside.

    edit: I mean, unless he'll stick to defending the kingside with pieces. but then white's gonna win by material. I don't think defending is an option for that reason?
  5. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    06 May '10 15:46 / 3 edits
    I have 133 examples of the position in my database, with 13. ... hxg4 being the most popular answer with 96. It scores 43%, from the perspective of white.


    Here's one of the games, which I selected because both players were among the strongest in the selection.

    [Event "Brussels SWIFT"]
    [Site "Brussels"]
    [Date "1986.??.??"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "Ljubojevic, Ljubomir"]
    [Black "Miles, Anthony J"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [ECO "B78"]
    [WhiteElo "2605"]
    [BlackElo "2610"]
    [PlyCount "56"]
    [EventDate "1986.03.??"]
    [EventType "tourn"]
    [EventRounds "11"]
    [EventCountry "BEL"]
    [EventCategory "13"]
    [Source "ChessBase"]
    [SourceDate "2004.01.01"]



    Sapi and Schneider cover this position in their Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav 9 Bc4, and they give 13. g4 a "?!", stating that

    "The insistence with which the white g-pawn questions the black king position is easily explainable because, if this attack breaks through, the whole Black conception is wrong. Since we have seen in Chapter 27 that this move (13. g4) did not succeed even with preparation, Black's chances are good that without this it will be even less successful".

    They then give 13. ... hg and remark "Never refuse a present!" The book was published in 1989, so take it all in context!
  6. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    06 May '10 15:57
    Originally posted by wormwood
    I know it's not book, but I don't really remember what's supposed to be the problem with it. you're thinking about Nxe4 with the discovery against queen on c3 next, right?

    [fen]3q1rk1/pp2ppb1/3p2p1/7p/4n1bP/1B2BN2/PPP5/2K1QR1R b - - 0 17[/fen]

    well, if I'm not mixing this up with some similar position, I think white simply retreats with Qe1. then what ...[text shortened]... te's gonna win by material. I don't think defending is an option for that reason?
    I only have one game with 13. ... Nxg4, but it is between two very low-rated players, and it ended in a draw.
  7. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    06 May '10 16:00
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    I have 133 examples of the position in my database, with 13. ... hxg4 being the most popular answer with 96. It scores 43%, from the perspective of white.

    Here's one of the games, which I selected because both players were among the strongest in the selection.

    [Event "Brussels SWIFT"]
    [Site "Brussels"]
    [Date "1986.??.??"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White " ...[text shortened]... Qb6 Qe5 26. Bc2 Rb8 27. Qxa5 Rxb2+ 28. Kxb2 Nd3+ 0-1[/pgn]
    yeah, ...hxg is the book move. after that typical ...e6 and defending with queen black should be fine I think. this is the book line I think:

  8. Standard member Mariska Angela
    Nyuszi, golyó!
    06 May '10 17:08
    What happens if white plays the other rook to f1? 15. Rhf1 Rxc3 16. Qxc3 Nxe4 White dont need to go back to e1 he can 17. Qb4 You dont have a fork anymore with Ng3. 17... Ng3 18. Rf2



    17... Nf6 and white can get the pawns on a7 and b7. Black has some initiative but white is still up a rook. Or white plays 18. Rd2 and the next move the knight is free.



    White can try to hold with Ne1 or be more active with Ng5.
  9. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    06 May '10 20:31
    Originally posted by Mariska Angela
    What happens if white plays the other rook to f1? 15. Rhf1 Rxc3 16. Qxc3 Nxe4 White dont need to go back to e1 he can 17. Qb4 You dont have a fork anymore with Ng3. 17... Ng3 18. Rf2

    [fen]3q1rk1/pp2ppb1/3p2p1/7p/1Q4bP/1B2BNn1/PPP2R2/2KR4 b - -[/fen]

    17... Nf6 and white can get the pawns on a7 and b7. Black has some initiative but white is still ...[text shortened]... 4bP/1B2BN2/PPPR4/2K2R2 b - -[/fen]

    White can try to hold with Ne1 or be more active with Ng5.
    I might be overly simple with this, but my first thought after 15. Rhf1 is that I would play 15. ... Qa5 or 15. ... b5 a la the Chinese Dragon.
  10. 06 May '10 21:34
    Originally posted by wormwood
    I know it's not book, but I don't really remember what's supposed to be the problem with it. you're thinking about Nxe4 with the discovery against queen on c3 next, right?

    [fen]3q1rk1/pp2ppb1/3p2p1/7p/4n1bP/1B2BN2/PPP5/2K1QR1R b - - 0 17[/fen]

    well, if I'm not mixing this up with some similar position, I think white simply retreats with Qe1. then what ...[text shortened]... te's gonna win by material. I don't think defending is an option for that reason?
    Wormwood,

    Correct, I'm thinking about Nxe4 with discovery against queen on c3.

    Though white's king is untouched, after this I normally proceed with a5.



    If white now plays Ng5, I can play d5 as black. After this, I don't know, but I generally try and rush with my queenside pawns, get my queen involved, and my rook to c1. Though white may have his pieces pointing at my King, I have found that white often has trouble breaking through my kingside formation, which buys me some time to mobilize my pieces. This seems to be a tricky position to put people in, especially at my level. I don't know if its correct or not, but I've had success with it, especially in Blitz games. It certainly seems to complicate things for white.

    Is it wrong to play this way? -- Playing a technically incorrect move to complicate a position? I know I'd get crushed by higher-rated opposition, but it seems like I have created a lot of opportunities for white to make a mistake.
  11. 06 May '10 21:41
    Mariska, your position seems more complicated for black to me. I think I could save at least one of my queenside pawns, move my queen to c7, and perhaps have an open file for my rook. It still looks like an exciting position.
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Gonzalo de Córdoba
    06 May '10 21:43
    TROGDOR!!!!!
  13. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    07 May '10 00:16
    Originally posted by amolv06
    Wormwood,

    Correct, I'm thinking about Nxe4 with discovery against queen on c3.

    Though white's king is untouched, after this I normally proceed with a5.

    [fen]3q1rk1/1p2ppb1/3p2p1/p5Np/4n1bP/1B2B3/PPP5/2K1QR1R b - - 0 18[/fen]

    If white now plays Ng5, I can play d5 as black. After this, I don't know, but I generally try and rush with my queenside ...[text shortened]... tion, but it seems like I have created a lot of opportunities for white to make a mistake.
    well, I'm sure it's a fine try for blitz, or against weaker players. but there's not much point analysing openings assuming "he's gonna make mistakes", is there?

    that said, I only play dragon from the black side, so I'm not quite sure how this looks to the 1.e4 guys. but if I was white, I'd take one glance, realize I'm up material and black has almost no attack left. (a5 isn't even threatening anything, you can't push it, and there's no pieces following it.)

    looks like white can just move Bd3, and black pieces drop off. ...Bh6+ Kb1 Bxf3 followed by fork on d2 doesn't seem to work because of Rh2. then just swap pieces off and just pile on the voulnerable black pawns and snatch them. or, get the queen in and mate from g6 or h8 or something. white pieces are so much better he can probably even sac one to bust black king open at some point.

    sure black can win if white wastes, what, 5 moves to create an attack? or miraculously survives to endgame without losing more of his mighty pawn front, but how realistic is that really? it just looks to me white has everything here and black has one good bishop.

    that said, next time it comes up in blitz as black, I'm sure gonna try it out.


    I'd love to hear how 1.e4 players see this. how often does black go for this, and how do they handle it in practice? is it a problem really?
  14. 09 May '10 03:58
    I think that Nxf3 loses now.

    This reminds me of some of the Anand -Topolov chess.
    Nearly every move I thought ...oh now I like black oops now I like white etc.
  15. 09 May '10 20:59 / 2 edits
    I know that this is a relatively weak game with errors on both sides, but this was a 3/0 I just played on FICS against an opponent 200 points higher than me or so.

    I think in this game, killing the pawn storm of my opponent was worth it. It complicated things enough to get him into time trouble, and blunder.