Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 06 Sep '08 01:50
    I'm intrested in people's assessment of this position.Which side would you prefer and why?What would be your move?If you like you can also make a guess what opening it arose from.It's not a game in progress in case you're worried about that.

    Black to move
  2. Standard member irontigran
    Rob Scheider is..
    06 Sep '08 01:55
    Originally posted by Katastroof
    I'm intrested in people's assessment of this position.Which side would you prefer and why?What would be your move?If you like you can also make a guess what opening it arose from.It's not a game in progress in case you're worried about that.

    Black to move
    [fen]r1b2rk1/ppq2ppp/2n1pn2/2b5/8/2NB1N2/PPP1QPPP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 10[/fen]
    i like how whites bishops are performing. blacks is blocked, thats not the only thing of course, i just would feel more comfortable as white. .. but does black have a brilliant move here or something.

    i forget who said it, but the most strongest tactic in chess is having it be your move so who knows
  3. 06 Sep '08 02:03
    Originally posted by irontigran
    i like how whites bishops are performing. blacks is blocked, thats not the only thing of course, i just would feel more comfortable as white. .. but does black have a brilliant move here or something.

    i forget who said it, but the most strongest tactic in chess is having it be your move so who knows
    Thanks for your input.
    No there's no brilliant move for Black.This is not a test,there are no tricks,no only correct moves.It's just something I'm currently taking intrest in and I wanted other people's thoughts.Consider it a survey
  4. 06 Sep '08 02:39
    If the knight on c3 was on d2, I'd say that this position was a the result of a traditional c3 Colle. But if white brings the c3 knight to e4, then it is six one way half dozen the other.

    Black really needs to look out. White has alot of pieces ready to attack the black's king and black doesn't have many pieces to defend.

    If I were black, my next move would be Nd4 looking to take away the defending knight on f3. If White does go for the exchange to protect his queen, then the bishop on d4 will be perfect postion to defend the pawn push to e5, freeing up the bishop to support g4.

    By going on the offensive, black can short circuit white's upcoming attack.

    I really hate giving my thoughts on this kind of stuff. I know I'm a low rated player, so I'm sure I'm missing alot aspects of the board.
  5. 06 Sep '08 03:40
    Personally I would prefer white here, simply because his position seems to be more free (i.e. has more options) especially since both his bishops have plenty of scope. Only black's dark squared bishop has a reasonable amount of space to move in; his light squared bishop is trapped behind the pawns.

    Of course, black can develop his bad bishop (probably via fianchetto, pushing pawn to b6 and playing Bb7) but that takes two tempi, and in that time white can develop his dark squared bishop (perhaps to g5, threatening to take the knight on f6 and doubling black's pawns, also exposing the black king to attack) and also bring his rooks to the d and e files to support a potential attack.

    I think white has better chances here simply because of a lead in development, meaning it is easier to launch an attack (potentially on the black king, the rooks coming in via d3/e3 then to g3 etc.)

    Apart from that I don't see much else in the position, white has a slight advantage but black should also be fine.

    This is all coming from a 1636 rated player, so don't count on my analysis!
  6. 06 Sep '08 05:34
    Are you sure there aren't any tactics? White's bishops look like they are just asking for a double sacrifice could a stronger player look at that one?
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Gonzalo de Córdoba
    06 Sep '08 05:49 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Katastroof
    I'm intrested in people's assessment of this position.Which side would you prefer and why?What would be your move?If you like you can also make a guess what opening it arose from.It's not a game in progress in case you're worried about that.

    Black to move
    [fen]r1b2rk1/ppq2ppp/2n1pn2/2b5/8/2NB1N2/PPP1QPPP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 10[/fen]
    Material's even. Kside P majority for Black, Qside for White. Black has a center Pawn.

    White has 5 tempos, Black 6, and it's Black to move! Black has more space but his light Bishop is blocked in a bit.

    Looks like a French or maybe Sicilian Defense.

    I like Black's position on first cursory analysis.
  8. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    06 Sep '08 08:01 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Katastroof
    I'm intrested in people's assessment of this position.Which side would you prefer and why?What would be your move?If you like you can also make a guess what opening it arose from.It's not a game in progress in case you're worried about that.

    Black to move
    [fen]r1b2rk1/ppq2ppp/2n1pn2/2b5/8/2NB1N2/PPP1QPPP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 10[/fen]
    At first sight White pieces seems to be better placed aiming for black kingside. On the other side white knight on c3 does nothing useful and it would be better if pawn would be on c3, covering b4 and d4.

    At the moment black could play 1...Nd4 and after 2.Bc4 (2.Bb5 a6 with 3...b5 is pointless and after other continuations bishop will be exchanged with equality for black) Rd8 with Nbd5 to follow. Black seems to be OK.
  9. Standard member anthias
    ambitious player
    06 Sep '08 08:20
    I like Black. Black needs to get his light squared Bishop out, and he can do so immediately by playing e5. This move also helps Black control the center. After e5, my plan would be to play around that pawn with moves like Re8 (threats of e4 are possible), Bg4, and Rad8. Central play is easy for Black, I think.

    Well, White needs to get his Bishop out. However, I can't see a plausible square for it. Bg5 then Bxf6 is possible, but immediate attacking chances are slim. Be3 just exchanges Bishops, which I believe enhances Black's dominion over the central dark squares after e5. After this cursory examination, I'd say Black is not better, but slightly easier to play.
  10. 06 Sep '08 08:34 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    If the knight on c3 was on d2, I'd say that this position was a the result of a traditional c3 Colle. But if white brings the c3 knight to e4, then it is six one way half dozen the other.

    Black really needs to look out. White has alot of pieces ready to attack the black's king and black doesn't have many pieces to defend.

    If I were black, my next mov stuff. I know I'm a low rated player, so I'm sure I'm missing alot aspects of the board.
    When I looked at the position before reading any of the posts, I would perefer black here, because the white queen looks funny, black has the extra central pawn, and has the right to move.

    but then I read the comments about white's bishops eyeing on black's abandoned kingside, and I don't know, it could be good for white too. Bg5 looks like a real threat, so my move as black would be a6 here, and leave it to white's guts if Bxh6 works or not. I think ...Nd4 would leave the king a little too much, wouldn't it? after exchaning it off, doesn't Bxh7, Ng5 and Qh5 work?

    edit: sorry I confused it with ...Nd5. My idea doesn't work anyway, see the next post.
  11. 06 Sep '08 08:48 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by diskamyl
    When I looked at the position before reading any of the posts, I would perefer black here, because the white queen looks funny, black has the extra central pawn, and has the right to move.

    but then I read the comments about white's bishops eyeing on black's abandoned kingside, and I don't know, it could be good for white too. Bg5 looks like a real threa ng a little too much, wouldn't it? after exchaning it off, doesn't Bxh7, Ng5 and Qh5 work?
    OK, I don't want to be the "spoiler", but Rybka Human, which I trust very much for posional assessement, says the game is almost exactly equal here.

    Rybka says 1...Nd4 is bad for black because after the exchanges 2.Nxd4 Bxd4 3.Nb5 Q-anywhere protecting d4 4.Nxd4 Qxd4 5.Rd1!, white wins a tempo over the queen with the threat of Bxh7+, picking up the queen.

    by the way, after comp analysis, my previous idea of after 1...Nd5 2.Nxd5 exd5 3.Bxh7+ Kxh7 4.Ng5+ Kg8 5.Qh5 doesn't work with the only move ...Bf5!, and black is simply winning. (any other move by black guarantees at the least draw.)
  12. 06 Sep '08 09:41
    Interesting.
    (I think Korch meant 1.Nb4 as 1...Nd4 gives white a small edge and
    something to do after 1...Nd4 2.Nxd4 Bxd4 3. Bg5).

    First thing I saw was the unprotected piece on c5 but with Black
    to play White has no way to use it.

    Position looks level and dull - White's fault as it looks like it has
    come from d4-e3-Bd3 opening and Black has played c5.

    1...Nb4 (annoying) or 1...Bd7 (developing).

    Bet it has come from a game from a recent minor tournament
    or a very old game. Today's stronger White players would aim to
    get more from an than this from an opening.
    It looks like planless development - get bits out and see what
    happenings without giving Black any real opening problems to solve.
    But White has no real weakness - draw.
  13. 06 Sep '08 11:05
    The position is about equal, as demonstrated in the game Schlechter - Tarrash, Cologne 1911 (French game with 3.Bd3):

    1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Bd3 dxe4 4. Bxe4 Nf6 5. Bd3 c5 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Nf3 O-O 8. O-O Nc6 9. Qe2 Qc7 10. Nc3

    The game continued with
    10. ... Bd7 11. Bg5 Be7 12. Rad1 Rfd8 13. Nb5 Qb8 14. c3 a6 15. Nbd4 Qc7 16. Rfe1 Qa5 17. Nxc6 Bxc6 18. Ne5 Be8 19. Qf3 Qc7 20. Qh3 g6 21. Qh4 Nd5 22. Bxe7 Qxe7 1/2-1/2

    Perhaps 10. ... Bd7 wasn't black's best, but in the game white didn't play 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 with active play against black's kingside. Black could play 10. ... Rd8 or 10. ... Nb4 instead.
  14. 06 Sep '08 14:48
    Thank you all for your input.And I'm impressed by all of you.Nice assessments!
    Mephisto has it spot on.It is indeed a French,Schlechter variation probably named so after that 1911 game (which I consider the main line for as far as you can speak of a main line in this opening).Though I assume it can arise from various openings.I too think the position is equal but I see some benefits for white.
    1.provocative: white moves his bishop 3 times in the first 5 moves!This might seduce black to attempt outright refutation which is not possible and thus overextend his position.
    2.theory: it cuts out all french theory while reaching an equal,playable position.
    3.surprise: you can be almost 100% certain your opponent has never seen this before as there is virtually no theory to be found on it,it's not even mentioned in MCO as an offbeat sideline!Unless,of course,he happened to read this thread
    4.originality: since there's so little theory on it there's plenty of room to experiment.
    5.simplicity: it's simple straightforward chess.The better player wins!

    All in all I think it can be a good OTB surprise weapon at my level but at higher levels it will lack some bite.

    I have to admit I had an evil ulterior motive I intentionally gave the position and not the opening because I wanted people to assess it without the bagage of their theoretical knowledge.If you show this opening 80% of chessplayers call it rubbish and you're an idiot for even thinking of playing it.But as shown in this thread many like the white side!I thought this would be the case cause,after all,it appealed to me too!Anyway,it shows you should always assess a position objectively and make up your own mind
  15. Standard member anthias
    ambitious player
    06 Sep '08 15:47
    Quick question: why hasn't anybody recommended e5 here for Black? It is not also included in the game. I found it very logical because of the reasons explained in my previous post. I would like to see what you think of it?