Attacking the Philidor Defense

Originally posted by toeternitoe
Black usually doesn't know what he's doing.

A favorite among beginners,but the Philidor is complex and difficult to play for black.

And for more advanced players... well, AFAICT it's perfectly playable, if you want to play for a draw, but more often than not that just isn't what the better players want to settle for. So the kind of players who could handle the Philidor and not be overrun don't want to play it; and the kind of players who think the Philidor is a smashing novel idea can't handle it.

Richard

Originally posted by Exuma
How about this version?

[pgn] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Bg4 4. dxe5 Bxf3 5. Qxf3 dxe5 6. Bc4 Qd7 [/pgn]

7. 00 or even 7. Qb3 are fine for white.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
4.Qxd4... Nc6 5.Bb5... Bd7 6. Bxc6... Bxc6 7. Nc3...Nf6 8. Bg5 ...Be7. 10. O-O-O
... O-O 11. R(h)e1

@ ChessPraxis - this does looks like white has all the fun I'll admit...

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
And for more advanced players... well, AFAICT it's perfectly playable, if you want to play for a draw, but more often than not that just isn't what the better players want to settle for. So the kind of players who could handle the Philidor and not be overrun don't want to play it; and the kind of players who think the Philidor is a smashing novel idea can't handle it.

Richard

This is what I'm getting at - I've heard this over and over, that the Philidor is a drawing defense at best, or that white has a big advantage. I know Bent Larsen played a version with g6, trying to update it (which is more like the Pirc). Still, what are the factors which lead to this (possibly true) impression.

Is there too much time and space for white making it a defensive position for black early, and that f8 bishop is kind of a pain to develop. Is it that players are just better at offense than defense? There is a story here about psychology, but the Philidor is not "busted" yet is it?

Originally posted by greenpawn34
It is an OK opening The Pihilidor I keep forgetting I know this opening..
It is one of those I have an excellent score with as Black.

You really have to feel sorry for this guy, Sepia Tint, he came so close.

Sepia Tint - truthinpositions. RHP 2007

[pgn]
[Event "August 2007 Octet VIII 1650+"]
[Site "http://www.timeforchess.com"]
[Date "2007.0 ...[text shortened]... f6 Qxb5 {if 15....QxQ then 16.Bxd7 is mate} 16. Qxb5 gxf6 17. Qxd7[/pgn]

@ GP - any good stem games for a Philidor as black? One of the things I find fascinating is that playing Bg4 just works out badly no matter how I look at it. (Bobby Fischer calls it a "weak move" in his annotation of the Opera game)

Its such an early move to be a bad move, its developing a piece!? It is a nice example to look at, simply because trying to figure out why it is "bad" feels like it is teaching me something. Its near intangible though...

Originally posted by Exuma
@ ChessPraxis - this does looks like white has all the fun I'll admit...

[pgn] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Bxc6 Bxc6 7. Nc3 Nf6 8. Bg5 Be7 10. O-O-O O-O 11. Rh1e1 [/pgn]

"Again White's game is the more fluid and his attacking chances somewhat better than Black's. Lasker-Speyer 1909" Keene/Levi

It is hardly a new idea my friend. I have used this line quite a bit, and I agree, white has the fun side.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis

"Again White's game is the more fluid and his attacking chances somewhat better than Black's. Lasker-Speyer 1909" Keene/Levi

It is hardly a new idea my friend. I have used this line quite a bit, and I agree, white has the fun side.

Can you post this game? I only found a Ruy Lopez from that year

Originally posted by Exuma
Can you post this game? I only found a Ruy Lopez from that year

I have never found a PGN for this game. maybe Keene/Levi dreamed it up. 🙂
Anyone else who might have it, it would sure be appreciated.

Originally posted by Exuma
@ GP - any good stem games for a Philidor as black? One of the things I find fascinating is that playing Bg4 just works out badly no matter how I look at it. (Bobby Fischer calls it a "weak move" in his annotation of the Opera game)

Its such an early move to be a bad move, its developing a piece!? It is a nice example to look at, simply because trying to ...[text shortened]... e out why it is "bad" feels like it is teaching me something. Its near intangible though...

I hope I can fill in for GP with a modern Philidor played as a rapid game among very high-rated players.

WARNING: This is not your Mama's Philidor...

No one has yet mentioned The PCG. In the hands of the right tactical player, it can be deadly.

All you lads appear to looking at lines where Black
gives up the centre with 3...exd4.

One of the ideas behind the Philiodr is to maintain the e5 point.

3...Nf6 and 3...Nd7 and the PCG Philidor Counter Gambit is on the table.



The Philidor Counter Gambit.

Which was busted by theory and then brought back again.

Don't know the current state of affairs but if you are looking at this
OTB from the White side for the first time then good luck.

In the 3...Nf6 line Black invites a sac on f7 and offers the a8 Rook.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
All you lads appear to looking at lines where Black
gives up the centre with 3...exd4.

One of the ideas behind the Philiodr is to maintain the e5 point.

3...Nf6 and 3...Nd7 and the PCG Philidor Counter Gambit is on the table.

[fen]rnbqkbnr/ppp3pp/3p4/4pp2/3PP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq f6 0 4[/fen]

The Philidor Counter Gambit.

Which was ...[text shortened]... 6. Bxf7+ Kxf7 7. Ng5+
Kg8 8. Ne6 Qe8 9. Nxc7 Qg6 10. Nxa8 Qxg2 {What is happening here.}[/pgn]

Thanks GP, as I said, PCG is one tricky line.

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
I hope I can fill in for GP with a modern Philidor played as a rapid game among very high-rated players.

WARNING: This is not your Mama's Philidor...

[pgn][Event "Mainz Ordix op"]
[Site "Mainz"]
[Date "2004.08.07"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Varga, Zoltan"]
[Black "Bacrot, Etienne"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "2592"]
[BlackElo "2712"] ...[text shortened]... 47. Rxb7 Nf2 48. Kc2 Nxd1 49. Kxd1 Rg8 50. Ke2 Rg2+ 0-1[/pgn]

Thanks Paul, cool game. That is a really complicated game though (ouch my head)

Originally posted by greenpawn34
All you lads appear to looking at lines where Black
gives up the centre with 3...exd4.

One of the ideas behind the Philiodr is to maintain the e5 point.

3...Nf6 and 3...Nd7 and the PCG Philidor Counter Gambit is on the table.

[fen]rnbqkbnr/ppp3pp/3p4/4pp2/3PP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq f6 0 4[/fen]

The Philidor Counter Gambit.

Which was ...[text shortened]... 6. Bxf7+ Kxf7 7. Ng5+
Kg8 8. Ne6 Qe8 9. Nxc7 Qg6 10. Nxa8 Qxg2 {What is happening here.}[/pgn]

Gods above that is a messy board! Black still has bishop and the R on h8 problems, but the white e-pawn looks tasty. Can the N on a8 be trapped as well? Lots of fun on both sides it looks easy to go wrong fast!

This opening is not bust but at the GM level White has well
trodden paths where he can keep the edge ito the middle game
and that is all a GM needs and wants from any opening.
That is why you rarely see it up there.

Down here it is playable, anything is playable.

Another vastly underated opening is the Hungarian Defence.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc5 3.Bc4 Be7



Again a GM won't accept this v another GM unless it's a peace offering
but he will v a weaker player.
Capablanca did often enough.

In the old days you would see the top boys playing in touraments along
with the rest of us plebs and you prayed the draw would get you one of them.

A good friend of mine once played Bronstein in a weekend tournament
in Glenrothes.

When one of the older lads at the Edinburgh C.C. passed away in the 80's
he left his chess stuff to the club.

His score book had league games in v Sir George Thomas, Vera Menchik,
Mieses, Abrahams, two games v Tartakower....
And he was just a casual amatuer player.

Now days with these closed shop tournaments the good guys don't
play the plebs so you never see the smashes or them unleash their
full power.

Instead now it's them v them and all we get is too see their games in print.

You can emigrate to a very small country and perhaps meet one
OTB in an Olympiad but that is your only chance.

Toby Brookfield 1796 is presenting Guernsey at the coming Olympiad.
He could pull a top Russian GM in round 1.
What a great day for him. I'm dead pure jealous. Good Luck to him.
(what's the weather like in Guernsey?).