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  1. 26 Aug '06 04:14
    i only have three games with it her so far

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=2346486
  2. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    28 Aug '06 17:13 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    i only have three games with it her so far

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=2346486
    Game 2346486

    Nf6 is blacks normal reply to d4 to play the Benoni.

    Unless I am missing something this looks like no Benoni I have ever seen.
  3. 28 Aug '06 17:22
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    Unless I am missing something this looks like no Benoni I have ever seen.
    Get another book!!!

    Bogoljubow,E - Alekhine,A [A44]
    World Championship 15th Germany (9), 1934

    1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.e4 d6 4.f4 exf4 5.Bxf4 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Nc3 g5 8.Be3 Nd7 9.Nf3 h6 10.Qd2 Ngf6 11.0-0-0 Ng4 12.Be2 Bg7 13.Rhf1 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 a6 15.Ng1 b5 16.Rde1 Bb7 17.Nd1 0-0-0 18.Bg4 Kb8 19.Bxd7 Rxd7 20.Qd2 g4 21.Ne3 Qe5 22.c3 h5 23.Nf5 Bf6 24.Qf4 Qxf4+ 25.gxf4 Rdd8 …26... Lc8 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ne3 c3 28.b3 Bd4 29.Nc4 f5 30.e5 dxe5 31.fxe5 Bxd5 32.Rxf5 Rdf8 33.Rxf8+ Rxf8 34.e6 Re8 35.e7 Bxc4 36.bxc4 Bxg1 37.Rxg1 Rxe7 38.h3 gxh3 39.Kc2 h2 40.Rb1+ Rb7 41.Rh1 Rb2+ 42.Kxc3 Rxa2 43.Kd3 Kc7 44.Ke4 Kc6 45.Kf5 a5 46.Kg5 a4 0-1
  4. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    28 Aug '06 17:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Mister Meaner
    Get another book!!!

    Bogoljubow,E - Alekhine,A [A44]
    World Championship 15th Germany (9), 1934

    1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.e4 d6 4.f4 exf4 5.Bxf4 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Nc3 g5 8.Be3 Nd7 9.Nf3 h6 10.Qd2 Ngf6 11.0-0-0 Ng4 12.Be2 Bg7 13.Rhf1 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 a6 15.Ng1 b5 16.Rde1 Bb7 17.Nd1 0-0-0 18.Bg4 Kb8 19.Bxd7 Rxd7 20.Qd2 g4 21.Ne3 Qe5 22.c3 h5 23.Nf5 Bf6 24.Qf4 Qxf ...[text shortened]... xh3 39.Kc2 h2 40.Rb1+ Rb7 41.Rh1 Rb2+ 42.Kxc3 Rxa2 43.Kd3 Kc7 44.Ke4 Kc6 45.Kf5 a5 46.Kg5 a4 0-1
    That is precisely 1 move of this game. Whites 2nd move diiffers from Bogoljubow. Had white played 2. d5 I might reconsider but white did not play that, he played dxc the Qd4. Can you find me any Benoni with those as whites moves.

    If you can I will reconsider my commengts but until then, as I said, this looks like no Benoni I have ever seen.
  5. 28 Aug '06 17:39
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    Game 2346486

    Nf6 is blacks normal reply to d4 to play the Benoni.

    Unless I am missing something this looks like no Benoni I have ever seen.
    not the Benoni
  6. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    28 Aug '06 17:45
    Originally posted by hypermo2001
    not the Benoni
    whats not the Benoni

    Game 2346486 or Nf6
  7. 28 Aug '06 17:56
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    That is precisely 1 move of this game. Whites 2nd move diiffers from Bogoljubow. Had white played 2. d5 I might reconsider but white did not play that, he played dxc the Qd4. Can you find me any Benoni with those as whites moves.

    If you can I will reconsider my commengts but until then, as I said, this looks like no Benoni I have ever seen.
    OK, I accept it is something of a theory avoiding sideline - and just so happens one I play OTB. In fact it could be called a Queens Gambit Accepted with the colours reversed if Black plays d5, and some lines of the Qc2 Nimzo Indian will transpose. It warrants a footnote in Nunns Chess Openings but I have an early example by Marshall see below. I suppose it is an (old) Benoni by virtue of the 1...c5

    Marshall,F - Blackburne,J [A43]
    ENG-USA cable m (1), 1909

    1.d4 c5 2.dxc5 e6 3.Nc3 Bxc5 4.Ne4 d5 5.Nxc5 Qa5+ 6.Bd2 Qxc5 7.Bc3 Nf6 8.e3 Nc6 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Qd2 e5 11.Ne2 Be6 12.Ng3 0-0-0 13.Bd3 Rhg8 14.0-0 f5 15.c3 Qe7 16.Bb5 Rd6 17.Bxc6 bxc6 18.f4 e4 19.Qd4 f6 20.Rf2 Rd7 21.b4 Rb7 22.Rd1 Rg6 23.Rc2 Kb8 24.a3 Qf8 25.Ne2 Rbg7 26.Nc1 Qg8 27.Rdd2 h5 28.Nb3 h4 29.h3 Rg3 30.Kh2 Qf7 31.Qc5 Bd7 32.Qd6+ Kc8 33.Nd4 Qe7 34.Qxe7 Rxe7 35.Re2 Kc7 36.c4 Kd6 37.c5+ Kc7 38.b5 Rh7 39.Rc3 Rg8 40.bxc6 Bxc6 41.Nxf5 Rb8 42.Rd2 Rb1 43.Nd4 Rh8 44.Rf2 Rd1 45.f5 Ba4 46.Rf4 Kb7 47.c6+ Kb6 48.c7 Rc8 49.Rf2 Rb1 50.Ne6 Bb3 51.Rf4 Bc4 52.Rxh4 Rf1 53.Rc2 Rb1 54.Rh6 Rb3 55.Rxf6 Rxe3 56.Rb2+ Kc6 57.Rb8 Rxc7 58.Nxc7+ Kxc7 59.Rg8 Bb5 60.Rg7+ Kd8 61.Rf8+ 1-0
  8. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    28 Aug '06 21:52
    Originally posted by Mister Meaner
    OK, I accept it is something of a theory avoiding sideline - and just so happens one I play OTB. In fact it could be called a Queens Gambit Accepted with the colours reversed if Black plays d5, and some lines of the Qc2 Nimzo Indian will transpose. It warrants a footnote in Nunns Chess Openings but I have an early example by Marshall see below. I suppose it is an (old) Benoni by virtue of the 1...c5
    Yes but surely to be an (old) Benoni it takes more than just a single move.

    It is like saying
    1. e4 .. e5 is a Ruy Lopez.

    Of course Nf3 is the (modern) Benoni!
  9. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    28 Aug '06 23:27
    No that is a Benoni. For some reason people just assume that the Modern Benoni is the only Benoni. 1. d4 c5 is I think called the Schmid Benoni, although taking on c5 like White did in the game is worse than 2. d5, leading to a Benoni structure.
  10. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    29 Aug '06 08:00
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    No that is a Benoni. For some reason people just assume that the Modern Benoni is the only Benoni. 1. d4 c5 is I think called the Schmid Benoni, although taking on c5 like White did in the game is worse than 2. d5, leading to a Benoni structure.
    If 1.d4 .. c5 is all that makes a (old) benoni suppose I then play
    2. e4 .. cXd
    3. c3 .. dXc
    4. Nc3

    and we have a Sicilian, Morra Gambit from this Benoni. I can't accept that just that single move 1. .. c5 can, by itself, constitute a Benoni although I agree it can move into (old) Benoni lines or even transpose into the (modern) Benoni but surely that is not what happened in this game.

    The characteristic of the Schmid Benoni is 2. d5 which does lead to a Benoni structure whereas dXc does not.

    Maybe I am wrong! I am not the world best theoritician and as I don't use any databases I am relying on my own knowledge only.
  11. 29 Aug '06 09:39 / 1 edit
    It's funny how times and nomenclature changes. The Centre Counter is now The Scandinavian Defence, The Greco Counter is now The Latvian and so on.

    My 1965 copy of Al Horowitz's Chess Openings Theory and Practice (they don't make them like that any more and more is the pity) gives 1.d4 c5 as the main line Benoni first discovered in 1825 and played in the Staunton Amant match 1843. 2. dxc5 e6 3. c4 Bxc5 is a sideline with one reference Meyer Schmidt Nuremberg 1952 - although you will see 2...Qa5+ and 2...Na6 here too. By MCO 12 (Walter Korn 1985 ish)
    2. dxc5 is characterised as a QGA colours reversed, but is still a footnote.

    Nunn's Chess Openings has split 1...c5 from the 1...Nf6 2...c5 lines and called it the Schmid Benoni and the other the modern benoni. 2.dxc5 is still a footnote! Horowitz in 1965 however only attributes the line 1.d4 c5 2.d5 d6 to Schmid and says 2...e5 (the blockade system) was a favourite of Alekhine.

    This has become somewhat archeological in nature and I can now see why the ECO code system was invented.

    Personally, I have had abysmal record against the Benoni and Benko and over the past few years have experimented with this 2. dxc5 line (and 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.dxc5) which has the advantage/disadvantage of being a theoretical backwater. I have discovered that some games appear to be a QGA with colours reversed a la MCO and others are similar to a 4.Qc2 Nimzo Indian. Others go their own way. Attempting to hold the pawn with moves such as 3.Qd4 I believe flawed. 2.dxc5 may not be objectively strong as 2.d5 or as swashbuckling as transposing into a Morra Gambit - but it does for me. Against the Benoni I have given up trying to win the opening.

    In the end I think Gerald Abrahams was right when he wrote, "Openings, like ladies' hats, are affairs of fashion."

    So, it appears, are the ways we name them!