Originally posted by Dragon FireThe difficulty with the Benoni is the Taimanov variation (8. Bb5+) which is what I normally hope to play and have good results with. The waffle in MCO says that theoretically black has no way to achieve equality and has to take refuge in complications.
Most of my Benonis follow the move sequence in Game 2505382 for the 1st 8 to 12 moves with good results. Whites deviations before move 7 are rare and (when they occur usually) result in black getting a better game.
- Joined
- 21 Jun 06
- Moves
- 82236
Originally posted by DeepThoughtYes. This is why the majority of top-level chess players play 2.e6 so they can meat 3.Nc3 with the nimzo-indian instead of 3...c5. (In case some people did not know this)
The difficulty with the Benoni is the Taimanov variation (8. Bb5+) which is what I normally hope to play and have good results with. The waffle in MCO says that theoretically black has no way to achieve equality and has to take refuge in complications.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtThis does seem difficult for black, this is the position I would be looking to reach with black:
The difficulty with the Benoni is the Taimanov variation (8. Bb5+) which is what I normally hope to play and have good results with. The waffle in MCO says that theoretically black has no way to achieve equality and has to take refuge in complications.
Black to move
Reached after:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6
6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bg7 8. Bb5+ Nfd7 9. a4 O-O 10. Nf3 Na6 11. O-O Nb4 12. Re1 a6 13. Bf1
Originally posted by cmsMasterOk, well I've been looking through some moves and I actually think MCO isn't completely right, I think there's at least on variation where black can equalize in the Taimanov:
This does seem difficult for black, this is the position I would be looking to reach with black:
[fen]r1bq1rk1/1p1n1pbp/p2p2p1/2pP4/Pn2PP2/2N2N2/1P4PP/R1BQRBK1 b - - 0 13[/fen]
Black to move
Reached after:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6
6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bg7 8. Bb5+ Nfd7 9. a4 O-O 10. Nf3 Na6 11. O-O Nb4 12. Re1 a6 13. Bf1
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6
6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bg7 8. Bb5+ Nfd7 9. a4 Qh4+ 10. g3 Qe7 11. Nf3 Bxc3+ 12. bxc3 Qxe4+ 13. Kf2 O-O
There seem to be plenty of chances for both sides in that line, unless I've missed something completely.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI am sure I have other games but here is a draw with this variation in Game 2285085
The difficulty with the Benoni is the Taimanov variation (8. Bb5+) which is what I normally hope to play and have good results with. The waffle in MCO says that theoretically black has no way to achieve equality and has to take refuge in complications.
Originally posted by Dragon FireHow about the lines where white plays 9.a4, DF? Would you try the 9...Qh4+ line I gave or something else?
I am sure I have other games but here is a draw with this variation in Game 2285085
1 edit
I think the best way to play the Qh4+ lines (which I think are probably the best way to get an acceptable game in the Taimanov lines) is to play ..a6 and force the bishop to commit to a square before you play ..Qh4+, since the decision on whether to retreat your queen to e7 or d8 can be influenced by which square the bishop retreats to. For instance:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6 6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bg7 8. Bb5+ Nfd7 9. a4 a6 10. Bd3 Qh4+ 11. g3 Qd8!
The game could continue:
12. Nf3 0-0 13. 0-0 Nf6! and White is stopped from playing e5 since after 14. e5 dxe5 15. fxe5 Nxd5 wins a pawn. Black puts his queen to d8 since the Bd3 blocks the queens protection of the d-pawn.
And after 10. Be2, you should probably put it on e7, to further inhibit the advance of the e-pawn.
Basically, in these Qh4+ variations, black is always trying to stop e5 whilst untangling his queenside. That's the reason that the bishop retreat to c4 is so rarely seen in this line, because after a later Nf3 by white, black can play Nb6! and when the bishop moves, play Bg4! and get that bishop out and exchange it for the critical knight on f3. Now black has exchanged off the crappy bishop on c8 that was blocked in for that knight of f3, which supports e5.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!That's pretty interesting, the only thing that makes me like the immediate 9...Qh4+ though is that black wins the e pawn from white, although black probably has to defend more for the pawn, I still think black's doing fine. I'll have to experiment with both of those lines when I get the chance - I entered the Modern Benoni thematic tourney, so mabey I'll get the chance there.
I think the best way to play the Qh4+ lines (which I think are probably the best way to get an acceptable game in the Taimanov lines) is to play ..a6 and force the bishop to commit to a square before you play ..Qh4+, since the decision on whether to retreat your queen to e7 or d8 can be influenced by which square the bishop retreats to. For instance:
1. ...[text shortened]... anged off the crappy bishop on c8 that was blocked in for that knight of f3, which supports e5.
Originally posted by cmsMasterI've known MCO to be completely wrong enough times to believe you. I checked on my database and this scores 66% in the 12 games it's been played. Although I do agree with you - black taking out the e pawn does spoil the party for white somewhat. Funny how queen moves like 9. ... Qh4+ are often the way to diffuse pressure.
Ok, well I've been looking through some moves and I actually think MCO isn't completely right, I think there's at least on variation where black can equalize in the Taimanov:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6
6. e4 g6 7. f4 Bg7 8. Bb5+ Nfd7 9. a4 Qh4+ 10. g3 Qe7 11. Nf3 Bxc3+ 12. bxc3 Qxe4+ 13. Kf2 O-O
[fen]rnb2rk1/pp1n1p1p/3p2p ...[text shortened]... o be plenty of chances for both sides in that line, unless I've missed something completely.
Originally posted by cmsMasterCall me old school, but I don't like to give up that bishop on g7! 😀
That's pretty interesting, the only thing that makes me like the immediate 9...Qh4+ though is that black wins the e pawn from white, although black probably has to defend more for the pawn, I still think black's doing fine. I'll have to experiment with both of those lines when I get the chance - I entered the Modern Benoni thematic tourney, so mabey I'll get the chance there.
Originally posted by cmsMasterI would probably kick the B immediately with 9. ... a6. 10. ... Qh4+ is then worthy of consideration as after 11. g3 whites K-side has been weakened although black has lost a tempo with the necessary Q retreat.
How about the lines where white plays 9.a4, DF? Would you try the 9...Qh4+ line I gave or something else?
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I agree with a6 before giving check - incidentally on my database in the few games where black's played Qh4+ immediately and then retreated the retreat to d8 scores better, although it's been played in far fewer games than Qe7. It always makes sense to see what your opponent has done before you commit yourself.
I think the best way to play the Qh4+ lines (which I think are probably the best way to get an acceptable game in the Taimanov lines) is to play ..a6 and force the bishop to commit to a square before you play ..Qh4+, since the decision on whether to retreat your queen to e7 or d8 can be influenced by which square the bishop retreats to. For instance:
1. ...[text shortened]... anged off the crappy bishop on c8 that was blocked in for that knight of f3, which supports e5.
I'm not sure I agree about the importance of the knight on f3 and black's light squared bishop though. I had a game against jl1000 (who has beaten me several times in the variation without Qh4+ OTB) - not involving the check with Qh4, but involving the exchange of that bishop for that knight, I know it's not quite the same, but even so. The pawn on e5 is sacrificed to mess up black's king's pawn cover and although I don't think the win at the end is quite forced (at least post game analysis with Crafty suggests not) I don't think I was in any danger of losing either: Game 2966759