What do people think on the user-friendliness angle? Crafty, I know, is totally not user-friendly. I'm a fairly intelligent chap, and I read the instructions, yet I can not get crafty to analyze a position. I can get it to whop me over winboard, but I can't get simple analysis out of it.
How easy is Fritz to use? CM? Shredder?
Ok... so here is what i got from this.
Well first off... for those who say fritz is better than chessmaster because fritz analyzes moves... chessmaster analyzes your moves too and also and also offers a "blunder alert" tool to warn you if you are going to make a damaging move. What i like about chessmaster is all the tutorials that come with it... including Josh Waitzkin's Academy which i think is the most useful tool in the game (he teaches so much better than the other tutorials that just show you "opening" moves. Waitzkin gives you the theory behind it.).
What i'm looking for right now though... is the better opponent to practice with.
I'm not looking for the MOST POWERFUL opponent that is going to kick my ass in less than 20 moves... i'm looking for an opponent that plays almost like a human. That's what makes me mad about chessmaster... even though i win some games... lose some games.. none of them feel like it's a real person. Soemone mentioned that fritz is more "human-like". If anyone can confirm this for me (because you've tried both) please do.
Also... what is the different between all these versions? Fritz 8? Deep Fritz 8? Fritz Championship Edition? What's for *me* (the amateur who's looking to improve)?
I have Chessmaster900 and Chessmaster 10th Edition. Both have a very easy to use interface.
Each also has about 150 different "personalities". These are computer players with different ratings and styles of play.
You can play in a casual mode (takebacks, any time control, etc.), or you can play rated games and tournaments against these personalities. With rated games, CM tracks your rating and adjusts it based on your results against the personalities. It's a very nice feature.
The only thing i REALLY hate about chessmaster is this.
Whenever i play the computer... whether it's a hard one or an easy one... it NEVER makes mistakes. The only time it makes a mistake is a REALLY REALLY obvious one.
For instance, it'll be midgame and a very closed game where neither side wants to initiate attacks so we both just move certain pieces back and forth... waiting for someone to do something. Every single time... the computer will EVENTUALLY do something SO RIDICULOUS.. such as attack one of my pawns (protected by another pawn) with a knight or bishop... and he'll lose his piece and alot of material with no gain of any kind.
Even in just regular fast paced games... the computer is pretty flawless in his movements... then will do something REALLY stupid.
I need a computer who doesn't make suicidal moves... just sometimes makes bad moves that may look good at first. I need to train myself to pick these out... and it feels more like a human player.
Computers play like computers. They can be programmed to be stupid, but then they play like they're retarded. If you want a human game, try uchess and others. there you will play some people reputed to be human. a few of these people will always beat you because they are computers disguised as people. a few of these people will play like they are retarded because they are actually retarded, but they play like retarded people instead of retarded computers. Is that clear? I hope that this helps.
The "it makes stupid moves" issue is one that I've seen people complain of regarding Chessmaster, but also of every other program that you can dumb down. Some people say Fritz is worse at this, and some say CM is worse.
It seems that it's difficult to write a chess program that acts like a lower rated player. However, this decreases as you play higher rated opponents.
I don't consider it a problem. I have finally decided, "hey, that's a dumb move.... but why is my rating against these things less than 1400?" If these moves that the computer personalities play are such that I could destroy it consistently, then my rating would be sky high.
Often one of these seemingly silly moves will lead to a ferocious attack against your king. You can defend correctly, but you have to pay attention.
Personally, I don't see this as a problem. I let CM pick random opponents for me, based on my rating, and play them. So it gives me a knight for a pawn. I know I've still got to play carefully, and many times my play from that point on is not good enough to win.
Playing rated games against CM has improved my play in general, I think. I have had a dedicated chess computer for years, and I'm beating it now on levels that I've never had a chance with before. Being a dedicated chess computer, it's not going to be subject to software upgrades or varying processor speed, so it's a good measure how good I am now versus how good I used to be. I attribute this improvement in my skill to practicing with CM.
Originally posted by alphster
The only thing i REALLY hate about chessmaster is this.
Whenever i play the computer... whether it's a hard one or an easy one... it NEVER makes mistakes. The only time it makes a mistake is a REALLY REALLY obvious one.
For instance, it'll be midgame and a very closed game where neither side wants to initiate attacks so we both just move certain pi ...[text shortened]... t first. I need to train myself to pick these out... and it feels more like a human player.
on Fritz you can give your "opponent" many many parameters before you play "it." You can set the rating of your opponent, the style of play (ie. drunk, pawn grabber, positional, desperado, etc.)....of course, the quickness of play (which DOES change the way fritz plays). You can also specify how much your "opponent" uses the queen! --or not.
So...if you want to get human play out of a computer, I'd say trying jimmying around with Fritz until you get a style of play that is both challenging, but not POUNDING you out. One thing I will say --the most annoying thing about playing a computer to me (barring the ridiculous-looking blunders it sometimes makes on purpose) is when it will make 2, 3, or 4 "waiting" moves in a row -just shuffling the rook back and forth between two squares....or the like. I've found this to be something happening with both Fritz and Chessmaster. My sense of danger rises when I'm playing against a computer that has the time to expunge that many tempi against me .....oie
Interesting Thread
I have Chessmaster 7000 and Fritz 7. I use Fritz almost exclusively for analysis of games, and Chessmaster mainly for playing. I like the personalities Chessmaster has and I've found it easier to choose one of these close to my ability to play than to try to set Fritz's program to play at my level. I do enter games I've played on Chessmaster into Fritz to analyze them. Frankly, I find Chessmaster weaker of the tow for analyzing games. Both games will kick my rear at the max level, which while can be a learning experience, does get discouraging after a time.
However, if I were to choose only one of them, I would go with Chessmaster. I mainly use my program for playing with time controls (I have no opportunity for OTB play, so my computer games are to only exposure to this type of play I get, since most online stuff is Blitz or Rapid, which I can't stand). Chessmaster 7000 and Fritz 7 databases are both about the same size, but I would have to say it is much easier to add and access databases with Fritz than with Chessmaster. I've added about 1.5 million games so far to my Fritz database.
Now if you want a good free program, try BluePaul's Chess Dragon. It includes the Crafy Chess engine and is what I used before I got Fritz and Chessmaster. I had a PGN database of around 2 million games for it (most of which are now in my Fritz database). Not much use for analyzation though.
I dunno about fritz and the others cause I've only Chessmaster 10.. One think I like about the analysis is that it is in pure english, and will explain things like mobility, threats, ideas... In plain English. Much better than looking through lines of variation where you have to work out why the comp suggested it, and your guess may be wrong. I dunno if other softwares have this feature.
Fritz is a bit more human in it's style. ChessMaster plays like a machine, finds combinations that no person would find. Chessmaster looks nice, has 'players' with names and profiles with different playing styles. I find their ratings a bit confussing. I can beat some of the 1900 computer characters but get whooped by some of the 1400 ones.
Fritz is a better program i think, but i still seem to play CM more so go figure 😕