Originally posted by nimzo5 It's easy to criticize Petrosian from the armchair, but I think I would play conservative chess if I had the Soviet machine on my back. See Taimanov and Spassky as examples of what happened to losers.
Kramnik has no excuse. He lacks the willingness to risk unclear positions unless he is forced to do so.
I'd like to point out that saying someone's solid/conservative/drawish, isn't critique. it doesn't make them bad players, nor good ones. it's just a style which they for some reason or another felt like their own.
Originally posted by wormwood I'd like to point out that saying someone's solid/conservative/drawish, isn't critique. it doesn't make them bad players, nor good ones. it's just a style which they for some reason or another felt like their own.
and boring, perhaps. but decisive, no.
I want it on record that WW just defended Kramnik!
I agree with your post, despite the effect it had on half a decade of chess. Kramnik style chess hardly lines up sponsors. Meanwhile Shirov, now past his prime, is still a regular at top events.
I thought I'd have a scrabble through my gigantinormous 5 000 000 game database (most are crap but the good ones are there too) and see how various players compare with Petrosian.
Petrosian himself comes out at 52% so he did draw rather a lot of games. Kramnik also has 52%, so those two manage to draw the drawing game. This is not the highest draw percentage though, that honour goes to Spassky with 57%, rather a shock considering he played King's Gambit.
At the lower end of the scale we have Karpov on 44%, Tal on 43%, Botvinnik on 42% and Korchnoi on 41%. Kasparov comes in at 37% but lowest of the low is one Robert James Fischer who only drew 30% of his games, although he did quit while he was ahead.
Among the modern bunch I have already noted Kramnik's dismal 52%, Anand draws 48%, Topalov draws 43% and Carlsen 41%.
Number of games in database: 1,941
Years covered: 1942 to 1984
Highest rating achieved in database: 2645
Overall record: +698 -159 =1072 (64.0% )*
* Overall winning percentage = (wins+draws/2) / total games
All that says is Petrosian won more than he lost, which goes without saying considering he was world champion for a while. If you work out the percentage of draws out of the total games played your figures give a shocking 55% of the games he played were drawn!
Originally posted by wormwood true, but their strength isn't due to their 'drawish' style. there are loads of equally strong players with wildly differing styles, from dead solid petrosian to the crazy chaos of tal.
players at all levels choose a style of play with which they feel comfortable. so perhaps it is in fact due to their styles that Petrosian and Kramnik were as good as they were, in Kramniks case is.
I'm sure Tal would not have been as successful had he played Petrosian style chess all through his career. And the opposite would be equally true
All interesting analysis. Petrosian got the "Iron Tigran" nickname because of his solid play. I still don't think it leads to boring draws. Draws yes, but boring no.
Check out Tal v Petrosian games on-line: the crazy, vengeful attacks of Tal versus the mr solid of defence in Petrosian. Interesting match up. Ironically, the ledger was in Petrosian's favour, albeit every slightly.
Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian beat Mikhail Tal 6 to 5, with 38 draws.
So, my earlier point was there is nothing wrong with slowly strangling the opponent positionally, or waiting for good counter attacking chances, without having to put in too much risk if that is the preferred playing style. He was no slouch tactically also when he needed to be - like all people who have reached the top.
I think it really depends on your outlook on chess. So many people want to win with brilliant tactics and sacrificial attacks, but slow and steady often wins the race with small material and other advantages, particularly at the amateur level.
Here are a couple of nice quotes regarding his play:
# It is to Petrosian's advantage that his opponents never know when he is suddenly going to play like Mikhail Tal. - Boris Spassky
# He [Petrosian] has an incredible tactical view, and a wonderful sense of the danger... No matter how much you think deep... He will "smell" any kind of danger 20 moves before! - Robert Fischer
After reading his biography, it is clear that Petrosian valued above all else, principles established by Nimzovich, that of over protection of important strategic points and prophylaxis. This makes for a rather interesting style of chess, no way deviod of beauty.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie After reading his biography, it is clear that Petrosian valued above all else, principles established by Nimzovich, that of over protection of important strategic points and prophylaxis. This makes for a rather interesting style of chess, no way deviod of beauty.
I would be happy with a 2645 rating! Wouldn't care what people said about boring!
Originally posted by sonhouse I would be happy with a 2645 rating! Wouldn't care what people said about boring!
Its only boring for those who fail to see and appreciate what is happening. I mean who likes to listen to a lecture that is like so way above our heads? Yet for those who are initiated into the subtle delicacies, it brings wonder. Fischer himself comments in My 60 memorable games that he was astounded at Petrosians ability to gradually improve his position. He of course knew and understood what was happening. One must appreciate that there are levels of understanding, in all things, whether its chess, art, literature, music, whatever.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie Its only boring for those who fail to see and appreciate what is happening. I mean who likes to listen to a lecture that is like so way above our heads? Yet for those who are initiated into the subtle delicacies, it brings wonder. ...
nah, it's just boring. which, again, doesn't mean it's not Good. but it IS boring.
why play chess if it's boring. I mean, really. what a pointless waste of time.
Originally posted by wormwood nah, it's just boring. which, again, doesn't mean it's not Good. but it IS boring.
why play chess if it's boring. I mean, really. what a pointless waste of time.
Sigh, have i not torn the words from the very depth of my being, to lay them before
as beacons in a misty land! How how the gods must curse me for having battled
against ignorance my entire life! Here is possibly my favourite Petrosian game, a
masterpiece of strategy! and as enthralling in its conceptual awareness as its
ease of execution!
[Event "Stockholm Interzonal"] [Site "Stockholm "] [Date "1952.??.??"] [Round "13"] [White "Petrosian"] [Black "Gedeon Barcza"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "A08"] [PlyCount "59"] [EventDate "1952.??.??"] {In this game Petrosian manages to destroy a closed centre and to clear the path for his central pawns with one stroke of genius} .1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d3 e6 4. Nbd2 d5 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 b6 9. e5 {After that move the pawn centre becomes less dynamic. However this centre is not closed yet.} Ne8 10. Nf1 Kh8 11. Bf4 f5 12. h4 {With this move White secures his dark-squared bishop a reliable place on the f4-square, being protected from the threat 12... g5.} Nc7 13. N1d2 Bb7 14. c3 b5 {Black had the choice: he could play 14...d4 in order to define the centre and then engage in a fight on this part of the board, or begin an approach on the flank. He chose the latter plan.} 15. Nb3 a5 16. Bg5 Na6 17. d4 {The approach of the black pawns becomes menacing, therefore White decides to close the centre immediately and to begin active play on the kingside.} c4 18. Nc1 Nc7 19. Ne2 Kg8 20. Nf4 {Here the knight occupies a very good position, attacking the only weakness in Black's position - the e6-Pawn.} Qe8 21. Bxe7 Qxe7 22. Ng5 g6 {Black is already compelled to protect himself against the White's queen invasion on the kingside (23. Qh5)} .23. a4 {With this move White weakens the leading member of Black's pawn chain (e6-d5-c4). Amazing how three white light pieces are looking at the chain simultaneously.} Ba6 {Black does not feel any danger and continues to develop his pieces.} 24. Nfxe6 {Zap! A Typical Petrosian manoeuvre, the centre will now become mobile} Nxe6 25. Bxd5 Rad8 26. Bxe6+ Kg7 27. axb5 Bxb5 28. d5 {The motionless centre has become mobile, and the two white connected central pawns decide the outcome of the struggle.} f4 29. Qg4 h6 30. Nh3 1-0
Best Opening To Get Decisive Result!
17 Feb '11 16:27
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