Against e4 I play mostly the Caro-Kann (with the French being my second weapon). After the moves 1.e4? c6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxd4... I like to play 4...Nf6?!
This response is often considered a little dubious, still, in practice it seems to be doing fine. In the Megabase 2006;
4...Bf5, 46%, av.: 2263, perf.: 2237 (-26)
4...Nbd7, 44%, av.: 2282, perf.: 2245 (-37)
4...Nf6, 47%, av.: 2231, perf. 2222 (-9)
I can understand why this defense might seem bad, but in practice, it seems to be doing very well, why is it considered so dubious ?
Originally posted by chessisvanitythat, and it fails to activate the bishop with 4. ... Bf5!
cause Nxf6 sucks for black?
the only reason anyone would prefer to play kann over french is that in the French black is crippled with a really weak c8 bishop. French players, however, get to enjoy a c5! push in one move. the french players exchange piece activity for a tempo. playing 4. ... Nf6 strays away from a main theme in the Kann: activation of the light squared bishop early.
Still, "it sucks", but in practice, it doesn't. If it was so bad for black, it wouldn't be the move after 4.Nxe4 with the best performance rating and the best %. I'm not saying it's objectively speaking the best line, but experience shows it's quite good.
rubberjaw30,
I think you're dead wrong. In severals lines, black will delay the activation of the c8 bishop. Karpov's favorite variation (Nbd7) and the 3...c5 variaiton in the Caro-Kann advance are good examples.
Originally posted by FreidenkerWell, I think you're dead wrong.
Still, "it sucks", but in practice, it doesn't. If it was so bad for black, it wouldn't be the move after 4.Nxe4 with the best performance rating and the best %. I'm not saying it's objectively speaking the best line, but experience shows it's quite good.
rubberjaw30,
I think you're dead wrong. In severals lines, black will delay the activation of ...[text shortened]... e variation (Nbd7) and the 3...c5 variaiton in the Caro-Kann advance are good examples.
screw Karpov, Caro-Kann was, for the most part, invented as an alternative to the French Defense. Or should I say, they needed a way of playing the French without a weak c8 bishop. Caro-Kann offered just that, at the cost of one tempo. Fundamentally, Black needs to play the c8 bishop out in most lines(other than say the Exchange Variation, where it is usually kept back to help defend against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack)
Originally posted by FreidenkerMaybe because your reasoning is kind of circular and built around a set of numbers that are inaccurate?
...really, but if there's no compensation, why is it doing so well in practice ?
Shredder's online opening database shows:
(1) Bf5 46.8%
(2) Nd7 44.7%
(3) Nf6 43.2%
Not that I'm big believer in picking moves according to their statistical strength, but that seems to be all you're prepared to offer here and your numbers don't even seem to add up.
So again, where is the comp?
Originally posted by Freidenkerknowing that it is second to Bf5, why would you play it anyway?
...really, but if there's no compensation, why is it doing so well in practice ?
It's like: you have two piles, one of gold, and the other of silver. The gold is worth more, but I think I want the silver one, just because no one else would take it.
Originally posted by Freidenker4...Nf6 is playable for black. Especially 5.Nxf6 gxf6!
Against e4 I play mostly the Caro-Kann (with the French being my second weapon). After the moves 1.e4? c6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxd4... I like to play 4...Nf6?!
[fen]rnbqkb1r/pp2pppp/2p2n2/8/3PN3/8/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 5[/fen]
This response is often considered a little dubious, still, in practice it seems to be doing fine. In the Megabase 20 ...[text shortened]... ght seem bad, but in practice, it seems to be doing very well, why is it considered so dubious ?
Originally posted by Freidenkeroh, and if you're going to try to say that 1. e4 is questionable (in your notation), then 1. c6, though solid and dependable, is definatelly not the refutation.
Against e4 I play mostly the Caro-Kann (with the French being my second weapon). After the moves 1.e4? c6! 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxd4... I like to play 4...Nf6?!
[fen]rnbqkb1r/pp2pppp/2p2n2/8/3PN3/8/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 5[/fen]
This response is often considered a little dubious, still, in practice it seems to be doing fine. In the Megabase 20 ...[text shortened]... ght seem bad, but in practice, it seems to be doing very well, why is it considered so dubious ?
I still like it, it's just not refuting... just equalizing. 🙂
I just don't like the fact that the OP put 1.e4?
If you look through all of my games...and yes as Schliemann you will see what I mostly played...and it was 1.e4
Fischer ( please no anti semitic comments or whatever ) said it was "best by test"
Now against 1.e4 I would NEVER play the Caro Kan...or the french...why...they don't fit my style.
You people look at the percentages of openings and defence and see.."Oh that wins alot!...So I will play it"
Do you not realize that chess is also a psychological struggle?
When i played here before I used to look over people's games and talk to them and trust me...alot of the time people were playing things that did not fit into their persona.
Lets look at Dutch Defense for example ( sorry bro but you are a perfect example for this )...he believes ( as do i ) about the power of the f5 move...and he has been very succesful with it.
But look at his moves...if he actually really studied the games of Petrosian he would be in the 2000's in no time. He is forcing himself to attack when actually he is really a positional player.
Now I am not saying he should give up the attacking lines...heavens no...but to really look at himself in the mirror...I had to do the same...cause i have studied Nimzovich so much that I know blockading is the right move...but there is something in me that sees those lines...the attacks...the sacs.
In closing...I used to offer this when i played here before...and I think alot of players here can help ya with it. If you think you are Tal...look back over your stuff...you really might not be. Maybe the Caro Kan is for you.
To look at ourselves objectively is the hardest thing in the world...and when it comes to chess...it is even harder
Dave
No offense to the OP...just felt someone should finally bring this back up