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  1. 06 Mar '09 18:50
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
  2. 06 Mar '09 19:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Jakal
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
    My view.

    It depends. If you plug a game against me into Chessmaster, to see what Chessmaster would do if it had your position, I see this as cheating. Why? because whether you intend to remember and use the same moves the computer played or not, your subconscious has registered them, and so you are not playing entirely unaided when you return to the game real. Clearly if you deliberately use the computers moves you are cheating by any standard.
    If the Chessmaster is playing your opponents moves, it is still dubious but probably not cheating in all cases. If your opponent DOES select the same moves as Chessmaster, you have already faced the position before and seen the positional outcomes, so still have an advantage. If your opponent digresses, then clearly you derive little benefit.

    I dont have a chess computer, but if I did, I would only run games through it once they had finished. What righteous motivation could one have for doing it before?

    Ed
  3. 06 Mar '09 19:12
    I would listen to an English Bobby before me. I would come pull all the buds off all your spring flowers, kick your dog, egg and paper your house. I would then make you listen to ABBA 24/7! Yes it is Cheating!
  4. 06 Mar '09 19:16
    Originally posted by Katonah
    I would listen to an English Bobby before me. I would come pull all the buds off all your spring flowers, kick your dog, egg and paper your house. I would then make you listen to ABBA 24/7! Yes it is Cheating!
    What's wrong with ABBA?
  5. 06 Mar '09 19:17
    Originally posted by Jakal
    What's wrong with ABBA?
    Any word that reads the same in Japan and England is deeply suspect.

    And thank-you Katonah. You are a wise man.
  6. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    06 Mar '09 19:19
    Originally posted by Jakal
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
    Yes, this is cheating. The computer may show you ideas of what your opponent is threatening, or how he may defend, etc. that may be helpful in the game in progress.
  7. 06 Mar '09 19:29
    Originally posted by Jakal
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
    An active program running a game in progress breaks TOS 3(b)
  8. 06 Mar '09 19:30
    I have been proclaimed a wise man by a pez copper and Ozzie Osbourne Gambit says he agrees but maybe not ABBA how about Rick Astley?
  9. 06 Mar '09 19:51
    Originally posted by Katonah
    I have been proclaimed a wise man by a pez copper and Ozzie Osbourne Gambit says he agrees but maybe not ABBA how about Rick Astley?
    Never gonna give you up
    Never gonna let you down ... classic!
  10. 06 Mar '09 19:59
    Rick cheated by lip synching, so you, him and Manilli are all guilty. Two our fathers and three hail marys and go forth and sin no more !!
  11. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    06 Mar '09 20:09
    Originally posted by Jakal
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
    Yes. This is using an engine, and rather effectively I might add. This method is even more likely to improve your chances of winning than simply asking the engine to suggest a move.
  12. 06 Mar '09 20:10
    Originally posted by Katonah
    Rick cheated by lip synching, so you, him and Manilli are all guilty. Two our fathers and three hail marys and go forth and sin no more !!
    I didn't say that I used an engine. I was asking a hypothetical question.

    Don't blame me... Blame it on the Rain.
  13. Standard member peacedog
    Highlander
    06 Mar '09 22:19 / 2 edits
    I played an OTB club game about 1994. The game was adjourned. The those days of adjournments outside help was the norm. I went home and fired up my Novag Diamond chess computer. I played many times, as both colours, with the position. Thinking my opponent did not have a machine to aid him I paid particular attention to how the beast beat me when I was playing my opponents side.

    The next week the game continued. I beat my opponent with a tactic that my computer used on me. When the game was analyzed after, I found out that my opponent was using a Novag Opal(a less powerful machine than mine) to help with his adjournment analysis. So it ended up I won because my computer was better than his.

    A hollow victory.

    When I look back on it now, better I lost!

    And regarding RHP. Don’t please.
  14. 09 Mar '09 18:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Jakal
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
    I think it is cheating according to the TOS, although there may be some gray area somewhere.

    While a game is in progress you may not refer to chess engines, chess computers or be assisted by a third party. -- TOS

    Setting up a middle-game or end-game position and then playing out your side, with the computer acting as your opponent definitely provides assistance. There have been some end-games where I would have loved to try my theories against a computer a dozen or so times before playing my real opponent.

    However, if you are playing a game that has reached a point 1.e4 e5 and that is all, it seems unreasonable to say you can't play against a computer that reaches that same position (or a human opponent). It gets a little gray if you are 3 or 4 moves deep in an opening on RHP and then play a person or a computer, deliberately stearing the game to the same position in hopes of improving your knowledge of an opening while you have a game in the early stages of that opening.
  15. Standard member Talisman
    Time traveller.
    09 Mar '09 18:13
    Originally posted by Jakal
    Is it considered cheating if a player plugs an unfinished game's PGN on an engine (for example Chessmaster) and plays it out against the engine, without asking advice or hints, and returns to RHP to finish the game? Chances are high that the game against the engine and the other rated player will not have the same outcome.
    If the player is not seeking help from the engine, but simply playing out a given position, is this a form of cheating?
    Why don't you just try and work it out for yourself and remove any doubt? You may just learn something!