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  1. Standard member agentreno
    Addicted
    25 Jun '06 12:00
    Playing as white with the Colle system, there's a move by black that doesn't seem to be often played and I'm sure must have a strong refutation but I can't see anything wrong with it. Can anyone see how this is to blacks disadvantage?

    1. d4 d5
    2. Nf3 Nf6
    3. e3 c5
    4. Nbd2 Nbd2
    5. c3 e6
    6. Bd3 c4?!

    Black's pawn push creates a strong pawn chain extending far down the board and dislodges white's light bishop, controlling d3 and e4 to cramp white's options. Good move? Or bad move?

  2. 25 Jun '06 12:03
    Originally posted by agentreno
    Playing as white with the Colle system, there's a move by black that doesn't seem to be often played and I'm sure must have a strong refutation but I can't see anything wrong with it. Can anyone see how this is to blacks disadvantage?

    1. d4 d5
    2. Nf3 Nf6
    3. e3 c5
    4. Nbd2 Nbd2
    5. c3 e6
    6. Bd3 c4?!

    Black's pawn push creates a strong pawn chain ext ...[text shortened]... move? Or bad move?

    [fen]r1bqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/4pn2/3p4/2pP4/2PBPN2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQK2R[/fen]
    nice.thanks
  3. 25 Jun '06 12:06
    Very bad move.

    Its just like white playing c5 in the queens gambit - a no-go move
  4. 25 Jun '06 12:28
    Originally posted by agentreno
    Playing as white with the Colle system, there's a move by black that doesn't seem to be often played and I'm sure must have a strong refutation but I can't see anything wrong with it. Can anyone see how this is to blacks disadvantage?

    1. d4 d5
    2. Nf3 Nf6
    3. e3 c5
    4. Nbd2 Nbd2
    5. c3 e6
    6. Bd3 c4?!

    Black's pawn push creates a strong pawn chain ext ...[text shortened]... move? Or bad move?

    [fen]r1bqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/4pn2/3p4/2pP4/2PBPN2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQK2R[/fen]
    It looks a bit dubious to me, but I doubt there's an out and out refutation leading to a win for white. The main problem is the move releases central tension, making the e3-e4 break more powerful for white. If after that black plays d5xe4, then white has dominance in the centre, nice diaganols for his bishops, and black will also have to do something about the potentially weak c4 pawn. If black doesn't play d5xe4 after e3-e4, white can consider e4-e5, also claiming more space in the centre and kingside. The position would then resemble a French Defence, in an opening where c5-c4 is generally considered dubious for black. The second problem is that you might be able to undermine the black pawns with b3 and possibly a4 - although this will depend on the timing of c5-c4 from black.

    It's not true incidentally that white never plays c4-c5 in the Queen's Gambit or that it's a necessarily big error - although it is true that it is a rare choice, as white's play in the QGD is usually about putting pressure on the black centre. Anyway, white often goes c4-c5 in the Slav, in positions where two conditions are met: 1. white has Bf4 (thus making the freeing ...e5 very hard for black to successfully achieve) and 2. where black has played ...a6, meaning either that there are more queenside holes for white to probe after c4-c5, or that it's harder for black to undermine the cramping pawn (...b6 cxb6 opens the c-file when the c-pawn is weak; without an early... a6 from black, if white goes c5 black can play ...b6 and if cxb6 axb6 with the idea of ...c5.) There are some comparable lines in the normal QGD where white also plays c4-c5 although it's rarer than in the Slav.
  5. 25 Jun '06 13:06
    Originally posted by TommyC
    It looks a bit dubious to me, but I doubt there's an out and out refutation leading to a win for white. The main problem is the move releases central tension, making the e3-e4 break more powerful for white. If after that black plays d5xe4, then white has dominance in the centre, nice diaganols for his bishops, and black will also have to do something about th ...[text shortened]... nes in the normal QGD where white also plays c4-c5 although it's rarer than in the Slav.
    Rec for good post
  6. 25 Jun '06 14:25
    I think it is a good pawn bin by black, (almost looks as though black is playing a ruy lopez..in reverse)
  7. 25 Jun '06 14:38
    I guess Agentreno likes the pawn chain because it looks nice. But it does nothing except give white's e4 extra punch. "...the idea of c4 should not be seriously contemplated because White can then cut loose in the centre."--The Ultimate Colle, Gary Lane. p. 17.
  8. Standard member EnigmaticCam
    Chess n00b
    27 Jun '06 00:40 / 1 edit
    I can't put it better than TommyC, but there are many middle game positions where it's important to leave the c pawn on c5 controlling d4. Usually when black exchanges his dark bishop with white's knight on c3 and white exchanges his c pawn for black's e pawn on d5, white gains the classic pawn formation c3, d4, e3. He will bring his bishop to d3, knight to g3, Rook to e1, Queen to c2, etc., all in hopes of controlling e4 for his e pawn. Black, on the other hand, will beat down on white's d pawn with pressure from such moves as c5, rook on d8, knight on f6, etc. When white makes his e4 move, black hopes he will win the d4 pawn with cxd4, and he can't do that if his pawn is on c4 instead of c5.
  9. 15 Apr '07 10:53
    Playing ...c4 in the Colle is a bad move! It's a definate no no. Whit has full control of the centre, black needs to keep the central tension and create some counterplay on the Q.S. In playing ...c4 black not only takes away the tension he once had, giving white a free hand in the centre and can open things up without worrying about the isolated pawn which often occurs. Nimzowitsch once said that a rapid transferrence of attack works better if the weakest point lower down the chain, this is only a good idea in closed positions, in the Colle the centre is not closed so this method is unadvisable.
  10. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    15 Apr '07 11:10
    Originally posted by agentreno
    Playing as white with the Colle system, there's a move by black that doesn't seem to be often played and I'm sure must have a strong refutation but I can't see anything wrong with it. Can anyone see how this is to blacks disadvantage?

    1. d4 d5
    2. Nf3 Nf6
    3. e3 c5
    4. Nbd2 Nbd2
    5. c3 e6
    6. Bd3 c4?!

    Black's pawn push creates a strong pawn chain ext ...[text shortened]... move? Or bad move?

    [fen]r1bqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/4pn2/3p4/2pP4/2PBPN2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQK2R[/fen]
    well, here's bit different game by the man against c4, ending really bad for black. c4 didn't kill black, but it didn't prevent white's attack either.


    [Site "Grand-Terneuzen"]
    [Date "1929.??.??"]
    [Round "3"]
    [White "Colle"]
    [Black "Delvaux"]
    [Result "1-0"]
    [ECO "D05"]
    [PlyCount "43"]

    1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. Nbd2 Be7 7. O-O c4 8.
    Bc2 b5 9. e4 dxe4 10. Nxe4 O-O 11. Qe2 Bb7 12. Nfg5 h6 13. Nxf6+ Bxf6 14.
    Qe4 g6 15. Nxe6 fxe6 16. Qxg6+ Bg7 17. Qh7+ Kf7 18. Bg6+ Kf6 19. Bh5 Ne7
    20. Bxh6 Rg8 21. h4 Bxh6 22. Qf7#
    1-0
  11. 15 Apr '07 14:39
    Im not quiet sure what all has been said (thats a lot of writing by some of these guys) but here is what I see: retreat bishop back (c2 isnt it?) and then smash the center with e4. He doesn't ahve properly placed pieces to stop it, personally I'd recomend taking with the knight, that way the bishop can reign supreme on the newly opened diagnols, but thats more personal taste.
  12. Standard member mipmcpt
    manchester clan
    15 Apr '07 17:53 / 1 edit
    how about a colle tournement?

    How do i go about requesting it??
  13. Standard member Amaurote
    No Name Maddox
    15 Apr '07 17:59
    On the subject of the Colle, does anyone know of a decent anti-Colle system that provides active, assymetrical play capable of taking Colle players out of their d4, Nf3, zzz book?
  14. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    15 Apr '07 20:55
    Here's a Colle line that I invented after getting sick of losing. I sat out on my deck for a couple of hours and starting analyzing all this stuff. My idea was simply to play ..e5 at some point with active play. Here is a short tidbit of analysis, and a trap that I have caught someone as strong as IM with:



    1. d4 d5 2. e3 Nf6 3. Bd3 e6

    This move may seem a bit odd at first, but again, I want to play ..e5 as fast as possible, so I don't want to spend a tempo developing my light squared bishop, when I don't know where it wants to go, and when it can be developed after ..e5.

    4. Nf3 c5

    Of course the way to play against any of these oddball 1. d4 systems is to play for ..c5 or ..e5. Why not both?

    5. c3 Nc6 6. O-O Bd6 7. Nbd2 O-O

    So both sides have developed. Black is ready for ..e5 and White is playing all the normal Colle lameness. He is gonna play e4 at some point as well.

    8. Qe2?!

    Not really sensible. White is dreaming of playing e4 and after an exchange of pawns and knights, having a strong battery on the b1-h7 diagonal.

    e5!

    You know this is fine for black when he plays ..e5 before White plays e4.

    9. dxe5

    This move might not be best either. I think an idea for White is to play 9. dxc5 and 10. e4, but Black is fine there as well.

    Nxe5 10. Nxe5 Bxe5 11. e4 Re8!

    Now we see one of the problems with having the queen on the e-file!

    12. f4?

    Now comes a funny but precise sequence that wins a pawn with a good position:

    dxe4! 13. Nxe4 Bd4+! 14. cxd4 Nxe4! 15. Bxe4 Qxd4+

    and White has been whamboozled. In the original game, White (the IM) escaped with a draw, because my endgame technique sucks, and well, he's an IM. But I have since won the other two games where this has been played. Humorous all around.
  15. 15 Apr '07 21:07 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    Here's a Colle line that I invented after getting sick of losing. I sat out on my deck for a couple of hours and starting analyzing all this stuff. My idea was simply to play ..e5 at some point with active play. Here is a short tidbit of analysis, and a trap that I have caught someone as strong as IM with:



    1. d4 d5 2. e3 Nf6 3. Bd3 e6

    This move m But I have since won the other two games where this has been played. Humorous all around.
    Hm, nice line, I might try using that - the problem I have is that a lot of white players play stuff like 2.Nc3 and just devlop randomly. Not that white's going to gain a huge advantage in those lines, but it's not like I can just win with no effort either.