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  1. 04 Mar '07 19:08 / 6 edits
    I want to start a thread where players can post common opening inaccuracies they often meet. Think this can be useful to some.

    I'll start:

    I meet this fairly often:

    1.d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3.e4 e6?
    3...e6 does not develope anyting does not put pressure on whites position.
    ]

    After 4.Nc3 c5 5.d5 Nf6 6.Bxc4 white has scored about 65% (well above average). Still you find some players playing it.
    6...exd5 7.exd5 a6 8.Bf4 Bd6 9.Qe2! Kf8 and white has a big lead in developement!
    [
  2. 04 Mar '07 19:13
  3. 04 Mar '07 19:25 / 1 edit
    Blah nm my post, my PGN messed up, again.
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Gonzalo de Córdoba
    04 Mar '07 19:35 / 1 edit
    ...e6 frees up the Bishop. How should that Bishop get out if not via ...e6? It also helps keep White's center from advancing.

    What about 5...exd?
  5. 04 Mar '07 19:42 / 1 edit
    Ladies & gentlemen, allow me to present the ubiqiutous...


    2.Bc4 is shoddy because of 2...e6 threatening an early d5 & kicking the Bc4 away whilst gaining an early stranglehold on the center.
    Why so many play this nonsense line for white is rather odd. Good for black though
  6. 04 Mar '07 19:46
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    ...e6 frees up the Bishop. How should that Bishop get out if not via ...e6? It also helps keep White's center from advancing.

    What about 5...exd?
    e5. Black can also consider playing either Nf6 or Nc6 (after wich white often attacks the night with a pawn to gain a tempo for developement) or 3...c5
    One of the best defences is 3...e5 4.Nf3 exd4 5.Bc4 Nc6
  7. 04 Mar '07 20:40
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    Ladies & gentlemen, allow me to present the ubiqiutous...
    [fen]rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/2p5/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - 0 2[/fen]

    2.Bc4 is shoddy because of 2...e6 threatening an early d5 & kicking the Bc4 away whilst gaining an early stranglehold on the center.
    Why so many play this nonsense line for white is rather odd. Good for black though
    2. Bc4 is not a bad move.

    Game 2788382


    anyway, your post reminded me of a lovely trap i like to use.




    Bxf3 Qf3 --- setting up that very famous mate in 4 trap.

    and its here where lots of players go wrong. -- they play Nf6 (instead of Qe/d7) and then bam! Qb3!
  8. 04 Mar '07 20:46 / 3 edits
    I was talking about 2.Bc4 in a Sicilian game.

    So how do you play against 1.e4...c5, 2.Bc4...e6 without losing a tempo & central control early on after black plays 3...d5

    I notice on gamesexplorer that white loses around 2/3 of games after 2Bc4
  9. 04 Mar '07 21:32
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    Ladies & gentlemen, allow me to present the ubiqiutous...
    [fen]rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/2p5/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - 0 2[/fen]

    2.Bc4 is shoddy because of 2...e6 threatening an early d5 & kicking the Bc4 away whilst gaining an early stranglehold on the center.
    Why so many play this nonsense line for white is rather odd. Good for black though
    I play Sicillian and that is what 80%of the people play, I always play e6 after that and have quite a nice game.
  10. 04 Mar '07 21:40
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    I was talking about 2.Bc4 in a Sicilian game.

    So how do you play against 1.e4...c5, 2.Bc4...e6 without losing a tempo & central control early on after black plays 3...d5

    I notice on gamesexplorer that white loses around 2/3 of games after 2Bc4
    You have been far too quick to dismiss it --- if you think its flawed, you can always play black against me with it.

    e4 c5 Bc4 e6....

    white simply replies with Nc3....

    Nf6? Nf3 d5 exd5 exd5 Bb5+ Bd7? d4

    ^ it might not be the most powerful response white has, but it is certainly most playable.
  11. 04 Mar '07 21:59
    Originally posted by Shinidoki
    You have been far too quick to dismiss it --- if you think its flawed, you can always play black against me with it.

    e4 c5 Bc4 e6....

    white simply replies with Nc3....

    Nf6? Nf3 d5 exd5 exd5 Bb5+ Bd7? d4

    ^ it might not be the most powerful response white has, but it is certainly most playable.
    I agree - 3.Nc3 is making the best of a bad job.
    after:
    1.e4...c5
    2.Bc4?...e6
    3.Nc3...NF6
    4.Nf3...d5
    5.exd5...exd5
    6.Bb5+...Bd7
    7.d4
    then:
    7...Bxb5
    8.Nxb5...a6
    9.Qe2+ (either that or move Nb5 back to c3 I presume)
    9...Be7 looks positionally strong for black.

    white to play:


    Why go to all this hassle of limping toward a possible draw as white when you can just play 2.d4, 2.c3 or 2.f4 instead to avoid Sicilian theory?

    Also, most of the people who play 2.Bc4 are -1400 rated & I think it's simply a hack against f7 without any medium term contingency plan.

    I'm already playing a stronger player who challenged me with this opening as white & am up P,N & R vs R in the endgame.
  12. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    04 Mar '07 22:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    I agree - 3.Nc3 is making the best of a bad job.
    after:

    Why go to all this hassle of limping toward a possible draw as white when you can just play 2.d4, 2.c3 or 2.f4 instead to avoid Sicilian theory?

    Also, most of the people who play 2.Bc4 are -1400 rated & I think it's simply a hack against f7 without any medium term contingency plan.

    I'm al ...[text shortened]... onger player who challenged me with this opening as white & am up P,N & R vs R in the endgame.
    2. d4 unless followed up with 3. c3 and the Smith-Morra Gambit isn't great (and then you need lots of theory) as white just loses a tempo and the opening advantage. 2. c3 and black can play 2. ... d5 and I don't see that black has any great difficulties, and after 2. f4 black has 2. ... d5 3. exf4 (3.e5 leads to an inferior French defence) Nf6 and the Tal defence.

    2. Bc4 isn't actually bad (as long as you don't do what I did in our game ), it just doesn't set black the problems that other lines do. The main reason that 2. Bc4 scores badly is that it's played by beginners who are trying to get Scholar's mate and get beaten back quickly. Bear in mind that Bobby Fischer once won with Damiano's pitiful excuse for a defence. White has the opening advantage and playing 2. Bc4 won't give black anything more than equality. The move isn't bad, just not very challenging.

    Edit: oh and you challenged me.
  13. 04 Mar '07 22:45 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    2. d4 unless followed up with 3. c3 and the Smith-Morra Gambit isn't great (and then you need lots of theory) as white just loses a tempo and the opening advantage. 2. c3 and black can play 2. ... d5 and I don't see that black has any great difficulties, and after 2. f4 black has 2. ... d5 3. exf4 (3.e5 leads to an inferior French defence) Nf6 and the T ty. The move isn't bad, just not very challenging.

    Edit: oh and you challenged me.
    Oh I forget the order of events. I must be getting old

    With 1400+ players white has a shocking record with 2.Bc4 in the Sicilian on this site. I suspect that the gamesexplorer record is a reasonably accurate assessment of its merits!

    It's pointless strong players saying this & that opening is actually fine because they always tend to challenge weaker players & of course claw back the dis-advantage with superior middlegame strategy/tactics, endgame knowledge & checkmate pattern recognition etc.

    A 2200+ player from this site should be able to win against an 1800 player playing, say 1.a4...e5 2.h4
    what does that prove, exactly?

    I don't want to play any more challenges against this opening - I encounter it with monotonous regularity as it is thanks, Shinidoki!


    By the way, as white I always play the Morra Gambit against the Sicilian & have this record against similar rated players:

    P=15
    D=1
    L=3
    W=11

    The theory isn't too bad if you understand the reasoning behind the first few moves.
    I explained a lot of it in my Smith-Morra thread a while back.
  14. 04 Mar '07 22:59
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    I agree - 3.Nc3 is making the best of a bad job.
    after:
    1.e4...c5
    2.Bc4?...e6
    3.Nc3...NF6
    4.Nf3...d5
    5.exd5...exd5
    6.Bb5+...Bd7
    7.d4
    then:
    7...Bxb5
    8.Nxb5...a6
    9.Qe2+ (either that or move Nb5 back to c3 I presume)
    9...Be7 looks positionally strong for black.

    white to play:
    [fen]rn1qk2r/1p2bppp/p4n2/1Npp4/3P4/5N2/PPP1QPPP/R1B1K2R w KQkq ...[text shortened]... onger player who challenged me with this opening as white & am up P,N & R vs R in the endgame.
    positionally bad?


    I would be reasonably happy to play as white there -- i don't think its bad at all really.
  15. 04 Mar '07 23:04 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by Shinidoki
    positionally bad?


    I would be reasonably happy to play as white there -- i don't think its bad at all really.
    I didn't say "bad" for white, I said "strong for black". Once he has moved the knight back to c3 what exactly has white achieved in the position here after both castle?

    black to move - Re8 looks very tempting...