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  1. 19 Aug '09 16:54
    The following, I'm positive, will generate a lot of discussion:

    1. P-K4 P-K4
    2. P-KB4 PxP
    3. Kt-KB3 P-KKt4
    4. B-B4!? P-KKt5
    5. 0-0! PxKt
    6. QxKt Q-B3
    7. P-K5! QxP
    8. BxP ch.!! KxB
    9. P-Q4 QxP ch.
    At this point, the supposed ‘known refutation’ was 9. …Q-B4?! However, the only White move which was considered was 10. P-KKt4?!, which although it yields an attack, weakens the kingside. If White continues instead 10. BxP!! Then Black only yields disadvantages from not capturing the pawn, as it can support a piece later.
    10. B-K3! Q-B3
    11. BxP!!
    This is the main position of the Double Muzio Gambit, which is remarkable in that there is no refutation and no forced win! There are endless possibilities in such a double edged position, most being slightly favourable to White, but not all, much like any other opening. This one, however, is much more interesting and fun to play.

    Morphy played 11. Q-R5 ch. !! in one of his brilliancies, however, this move would lose its exclamation points if played normally, since in his game he was playing without the queen’s knight! In this position, NOT having a knight is actually preferable, for it leads to the queen’s rook coming into play a move sooner.

    It must be mentioned that for the practical gambiteer, 4. B-B4!? is probably inaccurate, as although 4. …P-KKt5 must be THE move to play, instead Black can play a Hanstein gambit with 4. …B-Kt7. However, 4. P-KR4! Should lead to an Allgaier gambit, which is just as fun if not quite as exciting.

    Greco
  2. 19 Aug '09 17:07
    You might get more replies if you switch on yer Tardis, jump in & set it for any time during the post-1960's.
  3. 19 Aug '09 17:11 / 1 edit
    6. QxKt has me confused, also 4. ... B-Kt7 seems intriguing but impossible.
  4. 19 Aug '09 17:33 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by King Greco
    The following, I'm positive, will generate a lot of discussion:

    1. P-K4 P-K4
    2. P-KB4 PxP
    3. Kt-KB3 P-KKt4
    4. B-B4!? P-KKt5
    5. 0-0! PxKt
    6. QxKt Q-B3
    7. P-K5! QxP
    8. BxP ch.!! KxB
    9. P-Q4 QxP ch.
    At this point, the supposed ‘known refutation&#821 ...[text shortened]... R4! Should lead to an Allgaier gambit, which is just as fun if not quite as exciting.

    Greco
  5. Standard member Cimon
    Strategos
    19 Aug '09 17:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by King Greco
    The following, I'm positive, will generate a lot of discussion:

    1. P-K4 P-K4
    2. P-KB4 PxP
    3. Kt-KB3 P-KKt4
    4. B-B4!? P-KKt5
    5. 0-0! PxKt
    6. QxKt Q-B3
    7. P-K5! QxP
    8. BxP ch.!! KxB
    9. P-Q4 QxP ch.
    At this point, the supposed ‘known refutation’ was 9. …Q ...[text shortened]... R4! Should lead to an Allgaier gambit, which is just as fun if not quite as exciting.

    Greco
    What about 9...Qf5 (instead of 9...Qxd4+) ?

    Also there are reasonable options for both sides to avoid this line. 4.h4 (instead of 4.Bc4) or 5...Bg7 (instead of 5...g4) for example.
  6. 19 Aug '09 19:37
    Originally posted by heinzkat
    6. QxKt has me confused, also 4. ... B-Kt7 seems intriguing but impossible.
    My bad I meant QxP!! Sorry sometimes I post too quick...

    And about 9. ...Q-B4 (Qf5) ?! I already mentioned that if black could hope that white would play the 'book' 10. P-KKt4 (g4) ?! Then he may win. However, if white plays 10. BxP (Bxf4) !! , then he is better since the queen's pawn can support a piece. This is a critical line, but if played correctly can yield advantage for White. I will give an example game soon of 9. ...Q-B4 (Qf5) ?!

    Greco
  7. 19 Aug '09 19:47
    Btw, as a note to whoever is wondering, I already mentioned that the Kieseritsky (or hopefully Allgaier) might be better if Black is inclined to the Hanstein variation. However, I day that there ought to be an amendment to the laws of chess to require 4. ...P-Kt5 (g4) LOL!!!

    Greco

    P S: Is it possible to edit my previous post and correct the error I made in the moves ?
  8. Standard member Cimon
    Strategos
    20 Aug '09 08:37
    Originally posted by King Greco
    My bad I meant QxP!! Sorry sometimes I post too quick...

    And about 9. ...Q-B4 (Qf5) ?! I already mentioned that if black could hope that white would play the 'book' 10. P-KKt4 (g4) ?! Then he may win. However, if white plays 10. BxP (Bxf4) !! , then he is better since the queen's pawn can support a piece. This is a critical line, but if played corre ...[text shortened]... n yield advantage for White. I will give an example game soon of 9. ...Q-B4 (Qf5) ?!

    Greco
    It would be good to show some example games in 9...Qf5 line to see how White should play after 10.Bxf4 Nf6.
  9. 20 Aug '09 10:23
    Originally posted by Cimon
    It would be good to show some example games in 9...Qf5 line to see how White should play after 10.Bxf4 Nf6.
    It's not recommended for 2100+ rated players to state your opinion in Only chess forum. The clique of vocal patzers may attack everyone who disagree with them.
  10. 20 Aug '09 15:00
    Okay: here's what you've all been waiting for--although I will repeat that I doubt that this is THE critical line in this variation...

    1. P-K4 P-K4
    2. P-KB4 PxP
    3. Kt-KB3 P-KKt4
    4. B-B4!? P-KKt5
    5. 0-0! PxKt
    6. QxP Q-B3!
    7. P-K5! QxP
    8. BxP ch.!! KxB
    9. P-Q4! Q-B4?!
    10. BxP!! Kt-KB3
    11. Q-K3 B-Kt2
    It's possible that at this point 11. Q-K2!? Is even stronger for White...
    12, B-K5 Q-K3
    If 12. ...Q-Kt3 then the complications will favour White, e. g.; 13. Kt-B3
    P-Q3 14. Kt-Q5! PxB 15. PxP R-K1 16. KtxP R-K2 17. Q-QKt3 ch. K-B1
    18. PxKt! RxKt 19. Q-QR3 ch. K-Kt1 20. PxB QxPKt2 21. QR-K1 Kt-Q2
    22. R-K3 R-B3 23. R-K7!!
    13. Kt-B3 P-Q4
    14. QR-K1 Kt-Q2
    15. Q-B3 KtxB
    16. PxKt Q-Kt3 ch.
    17. K-R1 R-B1
    18. KtxP!
    Which is winning for White after 18. ...Q-Q5 19. PxKt BxP 20. KtxB

    Greco
  11. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    20 Aug '09 16:52
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    It's not recommended for 2100+ rated players to state your opinion in Only chess forum. The clique of vocal patzers may attack everyone who disagree with them.
    This is his punishment for being stuck at 2037. Forced to mingle with the lowly, unwashed masses!
  12. Standard member Cimon
    Strategos
    20 Aug '09 19:07
    @greco

    Could you put your analysis in notation which I understand?

    @robbie carrobie & swissgambit

    Your texts only validate my point.
  13. 20 Aug '09 19:59
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    This is his punishment for being stuck at 2037. Forced to mingle with the lowly, unwashed masses!
    Lol, the shame of it!
  14. 20 Aug '09 20:29
    Hi Greco.

    You are wasting your time posting in the old descriptive, a lot of
    players who would like to contribute or enjoy the games are simply
    skipping your posts.

    Which is a pity.
  15. 21 Aug '09 08:44
    Originally posted by King Greco
    Okay: here's what you've all been waiting for--although I will repeat that I doubt that this is THE critical line in this variation...

    1. P-K4 P-K4
    2. P-KB4 PxP
    3. Kt-KB3 P-KKt4
    4. B-B4!? P-KKt5
    5. 0-0! PxKt
    6. QxP Q-B3!
    7. P-K5! QxP
    8. BxP ch.!! KxB
    9. P-Q4! Q-B4?!
    10. BxP!! Kt-KB3
    11. Q-K3 B-Kt2
    It's possible that at this point 11. Q- ...[text shortened]... R-B1
    18. KtxP!
    Which is winning for White after 18. ...Q-Q5 19. PxKt BxP 20. KtxB

    Greco
    why don't you use algebraic notation? you are not the real Greco, are you?