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  1. Standard member dsmfire
    happy
    21 Jul '08 20:29
    Is it possible that a rate, say 1700, gives a lower rank now than say one year ago. I believe that I have noticed just that, and it could be due to the RHP overall rating tends to increase. Does it?
  2. Standard member English Tal
    Phoneless
    21 Jul '08 20:38 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by dsmfire
    Is it possible that a rate, say 1700, gives a lower rank now than say one year ago. I believe that I have noticed just that, and it could be due to the RHP overall rating tends to increase. Does it?
    Overall site rating won't increase, because RHP is a 'closed' system. (For every plus point, there will be a minus point.)
    However... treading very carefully here... the higher rated end of the tables could be skewed by players striving to gain a higher rating by fair means or foul. The lower ranks will be reduced accordingly.
    (2200 now no longer shows on page one)
  3. Standard member dsmfire
    happy
    21 Jul '08 20:52
    Originally posted by English Tal
    Overall site rating won't increase, because RHP is a 'closed' system. (For every plus point, there will be a minus point.)
    However... treading very carefully here... the higher rated end of the tables could be skewed by players striving to gain a higher rating by fair means or foul. The lower ranks will be reduced accordingly.
    (2200 now no longer shows on page one)
    I see your point. Then how come that my highest rating (some months ago)now is some 60-70 ratings lower? Just a matter of statistics and natural variations?
  4. Standard member English Tal
    Phoneless
    21 Jul '08 20:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by dsmfire
    I see your point. Then how come that my highest rating (some months ago)now is some 60-70 ratings lower? Just a matter of statistics and natural variations?
    60 or 70 players could have skipped above your rating artificially Approximate, of course. (This would mean that a lower rated player would increase rating by 60-70, for no extra effort whatsoever!)
    In other words: Either... weaker players are becoming weaker... or stronger players are becoming stronger. Take your choice.
  5. 21 Jul '08 21:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by English Tal
    Overall site rating won't increase, because RHP is a 'closed' system. (For every plus point, there will be a minus point.)
    I'm not sure of this...

    When (1) no new members are introduced in the system, and (2) the same number of rating points are exchanged (which not is the case in ratings over 2100) then I agree with you.

    But (1) and (2) makes this balance uneven.

    To be sure that 1700 rating points is always the same skill, the average rating of all active players should always be 1200. Without doing the calculations I don't think this is the case. The average is floating around.

    Perhaps there is a solution to remedy this average rating floating around, but I don't think it is worth the effort. But until then, I don't think 1700 in rating will have the same constant skill during lengtly times.
  6. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    21 Jul '08 21:50
    Originally posted by English Tal
    Overall site rating won't increase, because RHP is a 'closed' system. (For every plus point, there will be a minus point.)
    However... treading very carefully here... the higher rated end of the tables could be skewed by players striving to gain a higher rating by fair means or foul. The lower ranks will be reduced accordingly.
    (2200 now no longer shows on page one)
    Is it not possible, indeed probable that higher rated players who cheat then get banned having reached 2200 will slowly depress ratings as they have somehow taken 1000 points permanently out of the system.

    So if we had 1000 players average rating 1200 and banned 20 players of average rating 2200 we have removed 20000 points split between 980 players so haven't we reduced the average rating to just below 1180.

    Conversely I suppose players who get banned when at the bottom cause the opposite asdo players who just disappear leaving 100s of games to time out.
  7. Standard member English Tal
    Phoneless
    21 Jul '08 21:58
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I'm not sure of this...

    When (1) no new members are introduced in the system, and (2) the same number of rating points are exchanged (which not is the case in ratings over 2100) then I agree with you.

    But (1) and (2) makes this balance uneven.

    To be sure that 1700 rating points is always the same skill, the average rating of all active players sh ...[text shortened]... l then, I don't think 1700 in rating will have the same constant skill during lengtly times.
    Fair comment.
    The site still remains a closed one, however, even though there isn't always a consistent result allowing for higher rateds and provisionals etc etc.
    The gradual degradation of rating still remains an issue.
  8. 21 Jul '08 22:02
    Originally posted by English Tal
    Fair comment.
    The site still remains a closed one, however, even though there isn't always a consistent result allowing for higher rateds and provisionals etc etc.
    The gradual degradation of rating still remains an issue.
    You're quite right, the RHP rating system is closed. Therefore the rating has a life of its own, doesn't obay the rules of the worldwide rating systm of ELO nor national rating system.
  9. Standard member English Tal
    Phoneless
    21 Jul '08 22:05
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    Is it not possible, indeed probable that higher rated players who cheat then get banned having reached 2200 will slowly depress ratings as they have somehow taken 1000 points permanently out of the system.

    So if we had 1000 players average rating 1200 and banned 20 players of average rating 2200 we have removed 20000 points split between 980 players s ...[text shortened]... he bottom cause the opposite asdo players who just disappear leaving 100s of games to time out.
    It's a closed system, so ultimately it depends on when the 'offended' player chooses to report; naturally this will only be when the player's rating appears to be depressed.
    We both know what the overall problem is, DF.
    You still owe me for the evens bet.
  10. Standard member eldragonfly
    leperchaun messiah
    21 Jul '08 22:20
    Originally posted by English Tal
    Overall site rating won't increase, because RHP is a 'closed' system. (For every plus point, there will be a minus point.)
    However... treading very carefully here... the higher rated end of the tables could be skewed by players striving to gain a higher rating by fair means or foul. The lower ranks will be reduced accordingly.
    (2200 now no longer shows on page one)
    i see what you mean.
  11. 21 Jul '08 22:23 / 2 edits
    The average ranking in the Player Tables should increase because of the provisional ranking system as well as the 100 day rule. Poorly skilled or motivated provisional players act as "point donors" in that they add points to the system while not being counted. Likewise, because of the 100 day rule, those players who allow themselves to be timed out in their games again donate points to the system and are eventually not counted. So at least on the Player Tables, it is not a zero sum game. The average would probably much closer to 1200 if all the players, past and present, were counted, though several instances of cheaters exclusively playing themselves and creating their own closed systems would probably still skew the average.

    Edit: Here's an example: User 285560. Follow this user's games back and you will see that by creating multiple accounts and abusing the provisional rankings system, it's possible to create points from nothing at all.
  12. 21 Jul '08 23:28
    I can't seem to find anything about the 100-day-rule. Would someone kindly explain that rule?
  13. 21 Jul '08 23:31
    Would someone kindly exlain the 100-day-rule. Thanks.
  14. 22 Jul '08 01:06
    Originally posted by Vince123
    Would someone kindly exlain the 100-day-rule. Thanks.
    It's just that if you don't make no moves at all within 100 days you no longer show up on the player tables. This is only to keep the table up to date; it has no real impact on your account.
  15. Standard member dsmfire
    happy
    08 Feb '09 22:26
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    You're quite right, the RHP rating system is closed. Therefore the rating has a life of its own, doesn't obay the rules of the worldwide rating systm of ELO nor national rating system.
    I have been thinking about this issue for a while (almost 6 months ), and I now think I have the answer to this question. For it is a phenomenon, overall site rating DOES increase.

    The RHP rating system is in fact not closed! This factum appeared to me clearly. Because RHP gets new members all the time, 1200 points are put into the rating-pool. And if more players enters RHP, than leaves it, the overall rating will increase. And this is what happens.

    Thank you.