Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 19 Jun '08 20:19
    Strong player, average player, total patzers, if you have a moment to spare can you please chime in your feedback on this game?
    I thought I had a nice position out of the opening... but then I suddenly didn't! And then I thought I had a won endgame... but then I suddenly didn't! Here is the game in pgn, and my comments to follow.

  2. 19 Jun '08 20:19
    [Event "Challenge"]
    [Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
    [Date "2008.06.10"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "anibal100"]
    [Black "Joan34"]
    [Result "1/2-1/2"]
    [WhiteRating "1706"]
    [BlackRating "1601"]
    [EndDate "2008.06.17"]
    [WhiteELO "1706"]
    [BlackELO "1601"]
    [GameId "5095720"]

    1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nxd5 4.Nxd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 Bf5 7.Be2?!
    7.a3 is probably the safest move. This is a waste of time in view of Nb4.
    7...Nb4 8.Bd3?!
    Better was 8.Bb5+ c6 9.Ba4
    8...Bxd3?!
    Giving away the two bishop without a reason. Also, the knight in b4 may prove a bit misplaced, while the bishop in f5 looked quite good, with possibilities of going to g4 and ruining enven more white's pawn structure. 8. ... Nxd3 9.cxd3 Bg4 -/+, it's thoug for white to avoid the doubling in the f file and to defend d4.
    9.cxd3 O-O-O
    Difficult to judge this move. The question is: what to do of white's doubled pawn? d4 is a target, and in this sense the doubling on the d file makes sense. Also, White will probably castle kingside, and black leave himself with the option of a pawn storm on that side. On the other hand white has very automatic moves to defend the pawn, and create counterplay along the half-open c-file.
    10.O-O e6
    Logical, as it frees a piece, but black might find hard to keep the initiative.
    11.a3 Nc6 12.Be3 Bd6
    Maybe misplaced, as it obstruct the attack on the d pawn.
    13.Rc1
    Despite his structural problem, white have a decent game. I found difficult to point out were black's play have gone wrong after the mistaken Nxd3. here white has some good chances on the half open c file, and it's balck who has to defend.
    13...Kb8 14.Qa4 Qa5
    At this point I though that exchanges should be in black's favor, as I should have a better endgame.
    15.Qb3
    White understandably doesn't want to exchange, and now has a threat on the knight.
    15...Qa6 16.Rc3
    Preparing to double the rook. White seems better here.
    16...Rd7
    I didn't find anything better, the knight will need to move and c7 can use some more protection.
    17.Rfc1 Ne7 18.Ne5!?
    In a way, a triumph of the isolated doubled pawn. White uses his superior center control to force the undoubling of the pawns.
    18...Bxe5 19.dxe5 Rhd8
    But black now has a target, that is the backward pawn on d4.
    20.d4
    Shutting of his bishop. Again, it is hard to jusdge this position. white has total control over the c file, and is very aggressively attacking black's king position. But he also has a bad bishop and a backward pawn.
    20...c6?!
    A mistake, the c6 pawn is even more of a target than the c7 pawn. It doesn't have the protection of the b7 pawn, which is pinned. This move weakens the king position and take away c6 from possible use from the knight.
    21.h3 Ka8
    Black has to spend a move to offer more protection to c6 and untie his pieces.
    22.Rc4 b5?
    Tempting, the rook needs to leave now and cannot go to b4 to offer additional protection to the pawn in d4. I hoped this way to increase my pressure on d4. But this move is extremely weaking, exposing my king even further and accentuating the weakness of c6.
    23.R4c2 Rc8
    I already have to drop any idea of attack on d4, as any knight move immediately loose the c pawn. It is true that then I can probably win the d4 pawn, but this can be more of a help to white, opening a line for the bishop to my king position.
    24.Qd3 g6
    White is trying to force other weaknesses in my position.
    25.Qe4
    more pressure on c6.
    25...Rd5 26.Qf3 Nf5
    Black is summoning all his strength to try to defend all his weaknesses.
    27.Rc5 Qb7 28.Rxd5?!
    A mistake in my opinion, as the recapture fixes the pawns in the center and makes the plight of white's dark square bishop very hard to solve.
    28...cxd5 29.Rxc8+ Qxc8 30.Qe2 Qc4 31.Qxc4?!
    Again, I think a mistake. White goes in an endgame with a bad bishop against a good knight. I''m not saying that black has a meaningful advantage here, but if advantage there is it must be black's.
    31...bxc4 32.Kf1 Kb7 33.Ke2 Kc6 34.Kd2 Kb5 35.Kc3
    White avoided the penetration of black's king and is preparing to free the bishop from protective duties.
    35...Ka4 36.Bg5 Nxd4!
    Despite the result, I still think that this move is strong. I sac the knight in exchance of what will soon became two connected passed pawns, and quite advanced at that.
    37.Kxd4 Kb3 38.Be7
    Probably the best defense.
    38...Kxb2 39.Bb4 a5?
    I believe that this move is the one that made the vistory slip away. I thought that I rather get rid of the pawns on the a file, avoiding possible troubles. But I didn't see that my king is then stuck and cannot reach the kingside to attack white's other pawn. A possible continuation could have been Kc2, followed at some point by a6. White's king cannot leave his post and his bishop is unable to attack the pawn in a6. I think that would have been a victory for black.
    40.Bxa5 Kxa3 41.Kc3!
    Black kins is caged.
    41...Ka2 42.Bb6 Kb1 43.Be3! h5
    this is clearly a draw. White cannot make himself a passed pawn since all my pawns are on white square and I don't need to make pawn moves anymore. And black cannot hope that white will allow black's king any freedom.
    44.g4 hxg4 45.hxg4 Ka2 46.f4 Kb1 47.Bd2 Ka2 48.Bc1
    Draw agreed.
    1/2-1/2
  3. Standard member Ragnorak
    For RHP addons...
    19 Jun '08 20:35 / 1 edit
    I think Nxd4 is faulty. Your king is stuck in the corner, practically out of the game.

    I think you should have concentrated on exploiting the weakness on d4. With 10...g6 11...Bg7, you would have had more attackers than he could get defenders.

    12...Be7 and 13...Bf6 would have achieved something similar.

    20...Nf5 needed to be played. 3 attackers, max 2 defenders with back rank mate threat. Once you have the rook battery on the d file, you needed to open it.

    Just looked at it very quickly.

    D
  4. 19 Jun '08 20:55 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    I think Nxd4 is faulty. Your king is stuck in the corner, practically out of the game.

    I think you should have concentrated on exploiting the weakness on d4. With 10...g6 11...Bg7, you would have had more attackers than he could get defenders.

    12...Be7 and 13...Bf6 would have achieved something similar.

    20...Nf5 needed to be player. 3 attackers, ...[text shortened]... e the rook battery on the d file, you needed to open it.

    Just looked at it very quickly.

    D
    Thanks for the feedback Ragnorak!

    For Nxd4 - I'll look at it with an engine at some point (I don't have one on this computer) and at least I'll know if it made sense. True, my king got stuck in the corner in the game, but I think that had I played 39. ... Kc2 I would have freed it. The question remains if white could have exploited his closeness to the a file or not - but I believe that after a6, he could not - or at least I cannot find a line where he can...

    I agree with you on all the rest. The bishop in d6 was misplaced - both the fianchetto or the e7-f6 plans where more promising.
    As for 20. ... Nf5, I considered it and I discarded it out of fear for Rc6. It looks scary, although I cannot really tell anymore what should be so dangerous about it.

    What really puzzles me of this game is how little I got out of doubling and isolating his pawns in the d file. A misplacement of the my bishop (after all a dynamic feature) threw away my advantage (a static feature), it seems. And I probably underestimated the goods that his structure had: center control and open c file.

    Thanks again

    J34
  5. 19 Jun '08 21:15
    I also just looked at it quickly. One comment on your opening. I think 7...Nb4 was a bit of a premature attack. It didn't really accomplish anything (White could have replied with 8.c4, causing a bit of discomfort for Black), and you neglected your development. 7...e6 might have been better for your development, opening up a path for your King's bishop and getting closer to allowing kingside castling, if desired later.

    Remember, in the opening, your biggest goal is to develop all your pieces as quickly as possible, make sure your king is safe, THEN think about attacking if the chance arises. About the only time you should ignore this goal of development is if you see a tactical shot that gains material. (Unfortunately, 7...Nb4 wasn't one of those tactical shots.) Usually, the person who develops all of his pieces the quickest has a definite advantage in the game.
  6. 19 Jun '08 21:40 / 1 edit
    Hi Mad Rook, thanks for the suggestion on the opening.
    When I looked at Nb4, I didn't see the line Bb5+ followed by Ba4 ( I saw it five seconds after hitting the submit button, of course). In that line I do look a bit silly, I agree with you - but after all out of me moving the some piece twice (the knight), I get to make him move the some piece three times (the bishop). Anyway, I'm not so sure black is better in this conditions - but I cannot really say he's worse either.

    But I did look at c4. Here is how I imagined things:
    8.c4 Nc2+ 9.Qxc2 Bxc2 10. cxd5 O-O-O. In this line, I think Black is better. Black might be slightly behind in development (a rook and a bishop, which is a bit misplaced, against a knight and a bishop and a freer game for white), but the doubled isolated pawns, which are under attack by the rook, must compensate for that.
    The only way for white to avoid this line that I can see is to forfeit castling with 9. Kf1 (9.Kd2 seems ruinous after Qa5+).

    The reason why I broke the rule of not moving twice the same piece is because I felt that 7.Be2 was a mistake and I could capitalize on it. I see it as a tactic to achieve a strategical advantage, if you pass me the odd naming. But then again, seeing how the game went on maybe I should have sticked to more solid principles...

    Thanks for the feedback!

    J34
  7. Standard member Ragnorak
    For RHP addons...
    19 Jun '08 21:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Joan34
    What really puzzles me of this game is how little I got out of doubling and isolating his pawns in the d file. A misplacement of the my bishop (after all a dynamic feature) threw away my advantage (a static feature), it seems. And I probably underestimated the goods that his structure had: center control and open c file.
    The reason why you got so little out of the isolated doubled pawns was because once you created the weakness, you effectively ignored it.

    Count how many attackers you can get on d4 and in how many moves after 10. 0-0. I reckon 4 after move 13. The most he can get defending it by then is 3 (a rook on c4 can be chased away by b5). So, by move 14 you win a pawn, and with some luck exchange off some material.

    Once you've won the pawn on d4, the pawn on d3 will be your next target and will fall within a couple of moves.

    0-1

    Your original plan was to create a weakness, but then for some reason once you created the weakness you moved away from the logical continuation of your plan. Attacking the weakness and attacking it again had to be done for you to get something out of it.

    D
  8. 19 Jun '08 21:46
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    The reason why you got so little out of the isolated doubled pawns was because once you created the weakness, you effectively ignored it.

    ...

    Your original plan was to create a weakness, but then for some reason once you created the weakness you moved away from the logical continuation of your plan. Attacking the weakness and attacking it again had to be done for you to get something out of it.

    D
    Very well said, indeed. The positioning of the bishop in d6, aimed at white's king, was at total odd with exploiting white's weakness, that was not on the kingside but in the center, in the doubled pawns. That development was automatic for me, but clearly wrong.

    Thanks again for the help

    J34
  9. 19 Jun '08 21:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Joan34
    But I did look at c4. Here is how I imagined things:
    8.c4 Nc2+ 9.Qxc2 Bxc2 10. cxd5 O-O-O. In this line, I think Black is better. Black might be slightly behind in development (a rook and a bishop, which is a bit misplaced, against a knight and a bishop and a freer game for white), but the doubled isolated pawns, which are under attack by the rook, must compensate for that.
    The only problem with the line you give is that White is up a piece. Even if Black snags one of the doubled pawns, White is still ahead a piece to a pawn. (Also, White has nice attacking chances with 11.Bf4.)
  10. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    19 Jun '08 21:58 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Joan34
    [Event "Challenge"]
    [Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
    [Date "2008.06.10"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "anibal100"]
    [Black "Joan34"]
    [Result "1/2-1/2"]
    [WhiteRating "1706"]
    [BlackRating "1601"]
    [EndDate "2008.06.17"]
    [WhiteELO "1706"]
    [BlackELO "1601"]
    [GameId "5095720"]

    1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nxd5 4.Nxd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 Bf5 7.Be2?!
    7.a3 is prob 6.f4 Kb1 47.Bd2 Ka2 48.Bc1
    Draw agreed.
    1/2-1/2
    Are you sure this is a draw? White has winning chances if he can stalemate your King and force your pawns to advance to their doom. As long as he can stop the pawns without giving the Bishop away too readily, he might very well win. One example line is:



    1... Ka1 2. Kc2 Ka2 3. Bb2 c3 4. Kxc3 d4+ 5. Kxd4 Kxb2 6. Kc5 Kc3 7. Kd6
    Kd4 8. Ke7 Ke4 9. Kxf7 Kxf4 10. Kxe6 Kxg4 11. Kf6 g5 12. e6 Kf4 13. e7 g4
    14. e8=Q
  11. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    19 Jun '08 22:11
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Are you sure this is a draw? White has winning chances if he can stalemate your King and force your pawns to advance to their doom. As long as he can stop the pawns without giving the Bishop away too readily, he might very well win. One example line is:

    [fen]8/5p2/4p1p1/3pP3/2p2PP1/2K5/k7/2B5[/fen]

    1... Ka1 2. Kc2 Ka2 3. Bb2 c3 4. Kxc3 d4+ 5. Kxd4 ...[text shortened]... Kc3 7. Kd6
    Kd4 8. Ke7 Ke4 9. Kxf7 Kxf4 10. Kxe6 Kxg4 11. Kf6 g5 12. e6 Kf4 13. e7 g4
    14. e8=Q
    Let's say Black avoids the stalemate. In that case, I think White wins by forcing the Black King up the board.

    1... Kb1 2. Be3 Ka2 3. Kc2 Ka3 4. Bd4 Kb4 5. Kb2

    And if Black keeps getting pushed up the board, White's King will squeeze in and win the f7 pawn. The desperate try 5...c3+ 6. Bxc3+ Kc4 7. Kc2 d4 8. Be1 d3+ 9. Kd2 Kd4 10. Bf2+ Ke4 11. Be3 seems won for White, too.

    This is a complex ending, so it is possible I have missed something, but I like White's chances so far.
  12. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    19 Jun '08 22:36
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    The reason why you got so little out of the isolated doubled pawns was because once you created the weakness, you effectively ignored it.

    Count how many attackers you can get on d4 and in how many moves after 10. 0-0. I reckon 4 after move 13. The most he can get defending it by then is 3 (a rook on c4 can be chased away by b5). So, by move 14 you win ...[text shortened]... ing the weakness and attacking it again had to be done for you to get something out of it.

    D
    Chess would be so much easier if only the opponent would hold still while you are executing your plan.

    12...Be7 13.Qa4 Bf6 14.Rac1 Kb8 [Can't take d4 unless you're willing to let wQ into a7] 15.Rc5 Qd6 16.Rfc1 Nxd4 17.Bxd4 Bxd4 18.Nxd4 Qxd4 19.Qxd4 Rxd4 20.Rxc7 and White is doing just fine. The 'weak' doubled pawns also allowed White to get counterplay on the c-file, while controlling many central squares.

    It is true that Black may take more steps to curtail White's Queenside play - may challenge with ...Qa5, as in the game, but then we've veered off plan again.

    Planning White's funeral on move 10 seems premature, although I tend to agree that Black is better.
  13. 19 Jun '08 23:57
    Originally posted by Mad Rook
    The only problem with the line you give is that White is up a piece. Even if Black snags one of the doubled pawns, White is still ahead a piece to a pawn. (Also, White has nice attacking chances with 11.Bf4.)
    Ah, the dropping of the piece! One of my specialties, both in variations and in actual play!!!
    Yep, my line is nonsense. Cannot look at it now though, will write more tomorrow.

    Thanks!

    J34
  14. 20 Jun '08 00:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Joan34
    Ah, the dropping of the piece! One of my specialties, both in variations and in actual play!!!
    Yep, my line is nonsense. Cannot look at it now though, will write more tomorrow.

    Thanks!

    J34
    Well, White didn't find 8.c4, so it's probably not too important at this point. And you did play ...e7-e6 not much later. And the long castling was an interesting approach. I do agree with Ragnorak in that once you doubled White's pawns, you should have worked on exploiting that weakness.

    All in all, it was an interesting game to look at.
  15. 20 Jun '08 01:53
    Originally posted by Joan34
    What really puzzles me of this game is how little I got out of doubling and isolating his pawns in the d file.
    There was another thread the other day about the value of doubled and tripled pawns, and an article on doubled pawns by Larry Kaufman was referenced. Larry mentions that normally doubled, isolated pawns are fairly bad, but if the major pieces (rooks and/or queen) are still on the board, then the doubled, isolated pawns aren't devalued nearly as much. And in your game, White indeed had ALL of his major pieces during the time that he had doubled pawns on the d-file. That was probably the main reason why you were finding it so hard to cash in on White's weakness.