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  1. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    20 Jan '08 12:46
    First and foremost, this is not a thread about the former RHP user who was banned for inappropriate behavior. Therefore, I would appreciate it greatly if no allusions or wise-crack jokes were made about him.

    Now that I have that out of the way...

    I have been recently considering taking up the Dutch Defense as black as a reply to 1.d4, but I genuinely have no idea where to go from there. This is a request for anyone to post any insightful knowledge they have about the basic set-up, plans, gambits, or common tacitcs or positional strategies associated with it.

    I know the basic set-up of the Leningrad variation (1. ... f5, 2. ... Nf6, 3. ... g6, 4. ... Bg7 5. ... O-O), a slim idea of the set-up of the Stonewall variation, but no idea about the Classical. I also know that black aims for posting his knight on e4 at the appropriate moment.

    That's about it; any comments, suggestions, books, or websites would be appreciated.
  2. 20 Jan '08 12:55
    I'd also be happy to read some advice over this opening from stronger players. I think it's not that often played so with it, it would often be easy to quickly get your opponent to 'unfamiliar territory'. I've tried playing it but I don't know much about it. I know that in the Stonewall variation pawns are on f5, e6, d5, c6, king's knight goes to f6. I used to put my after castling on e8 to later bring it to g6. However, the bad thing is that light-squared bishop got stuck always so I quit playing it. But it would be interesting to find out something more, I may even return to Dutch then.
  3. 20 Jan '08 13:14
    I like the Dutch & play it otb with reasonable results so far.
    People often think that 1.d4...f5, 2.Bg5!? is too good, but I quite like the line
    2...h6, 3.Bh4...g5, 4.e3!? (trap move; 4...gxh4?? 5.Qh5# is rather a harsh lesson)
    4...Nf6, 5.Bg3...e6
    & it's looking dead even.


  4. 20 Jan '08 13:22 / 2 edits
    Hopefully some Dutch players themselves can add to this, but to start this thread off, the Dutch is a "system" type opening both in the sense that black can use it against a variety of openings and move orders from white and he can play, more or less the same series of opening moves, regardless of how white opens. Typically these are the moves the Dutch player aims at and roughly the order he will play them in, unless white offers up something like the Staunton Gambit (1. d4 f5 2. e4)

    1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf3 Bg5 5. Bd3 O-O 6. e3 d6 7. Bd3 b6 8. O-O Bb7 9. Nd2 Nbd7 10. Re1 Qe8 11. e4 Qg6

    White may vary his opening moves quite a bit from that example, but black generally adheres to such a template since the Dutch is based on the idea that black avoids initial engagement, allowing white to develop independently, preferring to defer confrontation to the middle game where he intends to launch a vicious, all out attack against the white K. Thus it is more about general ideas than opening theory, and the more mating patterns and motifs you know the better you'll do with the Dutch. Often the attack is conducted down the g file with support from a N on e4 and/or a B on b7 with one or more of the g and h pawns sometimes acting as bayonets to try and pry open white's castle.

    There are three variations that black can adopt: The Stonewall, The Classical, and the Leningrad.

    The Stonewall and Classical are fairly similar, the difference being mainly that in the Stonewall black fixes the center with his pawns on d5, e6, and f5, while in the Classical he prefers to keep the center a little more fluid with pawns on d6, e6, and f5. The Leningrad is a fairly independent variation where black adopts a Kside fianchetto where f5 is usually played on the first or second move.
  5. 20 Jan '08 13:33 / 1 edit
    Look in youtube for krakkaskak's live blitz games video. He plays the dutch defence against d4, and also, the bird opening with white, falling, regularly, in a reversed dutch.

    Edit: by example: YouTube&feature=related
  6. 20 Jan '08 13:35
    Originally posted by Tatarana Crocodilo
    Look in youtube for krakkaskak's live blitz games video. He plays the dutch defence against d4, and also, the bird opening with white, falling, regularly, in a reversed dutch.
    His commentary is great.
    He is one cool cucumber!
  7. 21 Jan '08 14:23
    I've only tried it in blitz with terrible results and as part of this tournament
    Tournament 1840.

    That said, while it is "systemish" in that black can almost always play his moves, there is one uncommon white variation that I have had success with and it's because I play 1. c4 and not 1. d4. That is to try and play for an e4 break via Nc3, d3 then e4 (after castling). Black can certainly acheive equality, but it's not quite your standard cup of tea.

    here is a deviation from that based on black exchanging for the c3 knight (GAME IN PROGRESS).
    Game 4145958
  8. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    21 Jan '08 17:56
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    I like the Dutch & play it otb with reasonable results so far.
    People often think that [b]1.d4...f5, 2.Bg5!?
    is too good, but I quite like the line
    2...h6, 3.Bh4...g5, 4.e3!? (trap move; 4...gxh4?? 5.Qh5# is rather a harsh lesson)
    4...Nf6, 5.Bg3...e6
    & it's looking dead even.


    [fen]rnbqkb1r/pppp4/4pn1p/5pp1/3P4/4P1B1/PPP2PPP/RN1QKBNR w KQkq - 0 6[/fen][/b]
    What about 4. e4?
  9. 21 Jan '08 18:07
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    What about 4. e4?
    4...Nf6
    5.e5...e6 is fine for black isn't it?
  10. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    21 Jan '08 19:06 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    What about 4. e4?
    4...d6

    I usually delay the h6 and play d6 straight after 2.Bg5... preparing e5, which I'm gonna ram in anyway if just humanly possible.
  11. 21 Jan '08 21:56
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    I like the Dutch & play it otb with reasonable results so far.
    People often think that [b]1.d4...f5, 2.Bg5!?
    is too good, but I quite like the line
    2...h6, 3.Bh4...g5, 4.e3!? (trap move; 4...gxh4?? 5.Qh5# is rather a harsh lesson)
    4...Nf6, 5.Bg3...e6
    & it's looking dead even.


    [fen]rnbqkb1r/pppp4/4pn1p/5pp1/3P4/4P1B1/PPP2PPP/RN1QKBNR w KQkq - 0 6[/fen][/b]
    2. Bg5 is an interesting sideline but isn't the g3 system supposed to be more annoying?