Engines opinion of the King's Indian

Whenever I plug one of my OTB King's Indian games through an engine to see if my opponent or myself made any outrageous blunders, it always seems to think White is doing fine right up to the point where he loses. This is a typical example from a league game I played tonight:

Originally posted by Fat Lady
Whenever I plug one of my OTB King's Indian games through an engine to see if my opponent or myself made any outrageous blunders, it always seems to think White is doing fine right up to the point where he loses. This is a typical example from a league game I played tonight:
[pgn]
[Event "Oxfordshire League"]
[Date "2013.03.04"]
[White "NN"]
[Black "Fa Kh1 Bxd4 24. Rxd4 Qxd4 25. Ne2 Qd3
26. Qc1 Nb3 27. Qe1 Nd2 28. Rd1 Nxf3
0-1
[/pgn]

It looks to me like White was doing okay until he played 23.Kh1 ignoring the attack on his knight. But he was apparently thinking of the attack on his king side. It appears 22.a3 was a wasted move too.

Originally posted by RJHinds
It looks to me like White was doing okay until he played 23.Kh1 ignoring the attack on his knight. But he was apparently thinking of the attack on his king side. It appears 22.a3 was a wasted move too.

for me 19. h3 seems to lose it

19. f4 looks better
it stops the pawn advance
prevents blacks QB access to h3
allows black to keep the bishop blocking the b-file

I think I intended 19. ... Qe3+ and pinching White's f-pawn if he played that. I was very happy with my position at that stage, but Crafty seems to think that White was better.

Originally posted by Fat Lady
I think I intended 19. ... Qe3+ and pinching White's f-pawn if he played that. I was very happy with my position at that stage, but Crafty seems to think that White was better.

I play this all the time, and move 21 should have been Qc2-d2.... which changes the complete game for White, and should have done! (although many of the previous moves I would not have made as W anyway.)

-m.

Originally posted by mikelom
I play this all the time, and move 21 should have been Qc2-d2.... which changes the complete game for White, and should have done! (although many of the previous moves I would not have made as W anyway.)

-m.

21. Bg4 looks better to me.

Originally posted by RJHinds
It looks to me like White was doing okay until he played 23.Kh1 ignoring the attack on his knight. But he was apparently thinking of the attack on his king side. It appears 22.a3 was a wasted move too.

If white saves the N, he gets hit with ...Bxh3. So, he was not fine on move 23.

Originally posted by Fat Lady
I think I intended 19. ... Qe3+ and pinching White's f-pawn if he played that. I was very happy with my position at that stage, but Crafty seems to think that White was better.

As a fellow KID player, I'm always happy to see white's queenside play going so slowly.

Had to laugh at that piece of timing.

Fat Lady says computers always think White is OK in a King's Indian.

JR's opening reply.

"It looks to me like White was doing okay...." 🙂

--------------------------------

Computers often struggle when one side has space and the other has pent
up energy. It will favour the space.
It can see all the breaks coming but classes none as a threat.
Also it probalby is OK but this was a game between two humans.
It canot see the ghosts we see and is not subject to our memories of what we
did in previous positions. Exact chess will not be getting played, it will be short
plans, inpiration and 'feel'.
It's like getting Shakespeare to look at a school play.
(not a dig at the standard of play Fat Lady, far from it, but you know what I mean.)

Originally posted by SwissGambit
If white saves the N, he gets hit with ...Bxh3. So, he was not fine on move 23.

You don't think losing a pawn is okay compared to losing the knight?

Originally posted by Fat Lady
I think I intended 19. ... Qe3+ and pinching White's f-pawn if he played that. I was very happy with my position at that stage, but Crafty seems to think that White was better.

With the bishops off and the black Q on f4 I thought the attack was stalled ...
of course black's position is still superior.

So the game was lost before move 19.

Where do you think?
9. Qc2
White really needs the Q on the same diagonal as the black bishop.
So is 9. Bd3 better?

According to 365chess.com, 9.Qc2 is still book and Black's best reply is probably 9. ... Ng4. Here is a game won by Tony Kosten with 9. ... Ng4 which bears some superficial resemblence to what I was trying to do!

Originally posted by greenpawn34
It's like getting Shakespeare to look at a school play.

Hi Greenpawn,

Actually I have you to thank for this win. I drew with the same guy almost exactly a year ago and I was a bit worried about how to approach this one. Then I read something you wrote recently about good players just playing moves and letting their opponents worry and fall short on time and decided to do that in my game. I played at the rate of roughly one move per minute up to move 15 and was half an hour up by then. My opponent only had about twenty minutes left for the whole game when he blundered the knight.

Here is last year's draw, quite entertaining if you're not the one falling for Black's trick!


I'd seen this far (before playing 31.Rxg6) and assumed I had a win after 35.Rxa6+, but unfortunately Black is probably better after 35. ... Kb8 and so I had to agree a draw.

Originally posted by Fat Lady
Hi Greenpawn,

Actually I have you to thank for this win. I drew with the same guy almost exactly a year ago and I was a bit worried about how to approach this one. Then I read something you wrote recently about good players just playing moves and letting their opponents worry and fall short on time and decided to do that in my game. I played at the rate ...[text shortened]... rtunately Black is probably better after 35. ... Kb8 and so I had to agree a draw.

I'd continue with Re2. The extra rook must be a win for white

Originally posted by Fat Lady
Whenever I plug one of my OTB King's Indian games through an engine to see if my opponent or myself made any outrageous blunders, it always seems to think White is doing fine right up to the point where he loses. This is a typical example from a league game I played tonight:
[pgn]
[Event "Oxfordshire League"]
[Date "2013.03.04"]
[White "NN"]
[Black "Fa Kh1 Bxd4 24. Rxd4 Qxd4 25. Ne2 Qd3
26. Qc1 Nb3 27. Qe1 Nd2 28. Rd1 Nxf3
0-1
[/pgn]

I often have this experience playing the King's Indian Attack OTB.

My study group had a conversation about this two weeks ago, and we decided that it must be the horizon effect. The KIA and KID are the type of opening where the attacks are often deep, and are not readily apparent for up to 15 moves, whereas many openings have very obvious and straightforward threats.

For instance, Bc4 by white in a kingpawn opening is usually a very straightforward threat to f7 and the black king. By contrast, when black plays ...Nf6 and then ...Nfd7 or ...Ne8 in the KID, this seeminly inoffensive idea (a retreat, no less) is actually the beginning of the attack, preparing black's ...f5 pawn break.

I think it is the pawn breaks that are the real culprit. Open games are easier to calculate with a short horizon, whereas closed positions with attacks preceded by piece maneuvering and pawn breaks are much deeper.