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  1. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    24 Feb '09 14:36


    White to move.
  2. 24 Feb '09 16:04
    OK, I'll fall for it:

    Black is an exchange down but looks like he has clear pressure, great bolckade and the better bishop. I like black in this position but I am probably missing something obvious...
  3. Standard member PBE6
    Bananarama
    24 Feb '09 17:03
    Originally posted by Garnoth
    OK, I'll fall for it:

    Black is an exchange down but looks like he has clear pressure, great bolckade and the better bishop. I like black in this position but I am probably missing something obvious...
    I'm new at this, but I agree with your appraisal. In keeping with my recent Silman study, I should list the imbalances:

    Minor pieces: Black's dark-squared bishop is clearly superior to white's light-squared bishop. It applies pressure to the e3 pawn along with black's queen and rook, and threatens to capture the pawn with check, while white's light-squared bishop languishes behind the light-squared queenside pawns while hemmed in by the f-file rook, and has no targets to shoot for. Black's knight is well placed on c5 and supported by the d6 pawn, and protects the b7 pawn (preventing rook pentration on the b-file) while eying the b3 square, preventing white from reinforcing e3 with his rook.

    Pawn structure: White has an isolated a-pawn, backwards pawns on c4 and e3, and 3 pawn islands, but has a (temporary) majority in the centre. Black has a backward pawns on b7 and f7, an isolated pawn on d6, 3 pawn islands and a kingside majority. However, black's pawns are well defended, and the isolated pawn on d6 provides fine outposts for black's knight on c5 and e5. Black's pawns also mostly reside on the white squares, allowing black's dark-squared bishop access to most of the board.

    Space: White has a space advantage on the queenside and the in the centre, although he can't make use of it at the moment as the pawns hem in the bishop, the b- and f-files are semi-open but well defended, and the centre is being dominated by black's queen-rook-bishop combo. Black technically owns less space, but white will have a tough time enforcing his property boundaries without making major concessions elsewhere.

    Material: White is up the exchange, however black will soon be making progress here as white can't defend the e3 pawn.

    Files and squares: White has control over the b- and f-files, although black has blockaded them effectively making them difficult for white to exploit. Black has control over the e-file, with significant pressure against e3. White's most active square is probably f6, while black controls c5, e4 and e3, with eventual pressure possible (useful?) at c4 if required after e3 is taken.

    Development: Both sides have developed all their pieces, but black has been able to post his knight and bishop effectively while white's rooks are fairly ineffective. Black's queen exerts pressure against e3 while white's queen is relegated to defense.

    Initiative: Even though it's white's turn, black seems to have the initiative here as white must respond to black's threats in order to minimize the damage. Therefore black is dictating the pace and direction of the game.

    Gotta go for lunch! But I'll be back to post white and black's most likely/useful plans (for my own benefit, obviously). Any feedback is welcome!
  4. 24 Feb '09 17:19
    Originally posted by Korch
    [fen]4r1k1/1p2qp1p/p2p2pb/2nP4/1RP5/2Q1PR2/P3B1PP/6K1 w - - 0 24[/fen]

    White to move.
    I don't like White's position one bit; what jumps out the most to me is that the e3 pawn can't be saved (Kf2 would be the only option but then Ne4+), that Black's Knight is on a nice spot, that White's Rook on b4 is not paying attention to what is happening on the board, that Black's pieces are actually cooperating where it is difficult to find some coherence between the White ones.

    So if playing White I would offer my opponent a beer and a draw.

    (whether this is a proper approach and evaluation of the position? Who knows...)
  5. 24 Feb '09 18:06 / 1 edit
    the only option I see for white is qf6. as far as I can see it forces black to exchange queens or move the queen off the e file. thus limiting blacks ability to continue it's attack. I'm not sure if the queen exchange is enough for white to be able to assert being up an exchange or not but i'd still rather be black in this position
  6. 24 Feb '09 18:26
    just had a quick look i would say the position is = whites next move should be Rb1 as the rook seems misplaced on b4 if then Bxe3 Kf1,Black has control of the dark squares and white has good control of the white,unless ive missed something....
  7. Standard member PBE6
    Bananarama
    24 Feb '09 18:38
    On summary:

    White has additional material and a slight space advantage, although he will be hard pressed to turn those into real advantages as black's pieces are better placed and more nimble, and black threatens to make gains in the material department. Once the indefensible e3 pawn is lost, white will want to limit the scope of black's pieces, apply pressure to black's weak spots on b7, d6 and f7 (via Qf6 and Rb6 or Rb4-b1-f1), and seek to trade off pieces, possibly giving back the exchange in return for activity along an open file.

    Black has superior minor pieces and more activity, with significant pressure in the centre, however he will have to defend his backward pawns on b7 and f7 to ensure white does not break loose. Black's initiative lends itself to a concerted attack on the kingside before white has a chance to improve his own standing by doubling the rooks on the b- or f-file and preparing a counter-attack.

    I think white would do best to try doubling the rooks on the f-file, as they can protect the king better from there, starting with 1. Rb1 and suffering the check and the subsequent harassment of the bishop:

    1. Rb1 Bxe3
    2. Kg1 Bh6
    3. Bd3 Bg7
    4. Qc1 (I think Qc2 leaves the queen without much room to manoeuvre, and Qb4 applies pressure, but the knight is more than equal to the task of defending.)

    After this, black will probably want to limit white's ability to penetrate on the f-file with f4 at some point, which also limits the light-squared bishop's scope, while maintaining pressure on the e-file and trying to overwork the queen, keeping it in a defensive role. I'm not sure where all this ends up, and I still prefer black's position, but I think this is a little tougher to crack than I first thought. My guess is that this will end up in an endgame with black hoping for a running pawn on the d-file and white trying to stop it.

    Any thoughts?
  8. Standard member black beetle
    Black Beastie
    24 Feb '09 18:42
    If I was playing this postition with either colours I would offer a draw, for I cannot bring up a succesful plan for the White and at the same time I cannot find an attacking plan for the Black; please comment
  9. Standard member PBE6
    Bananarama
    24 Feb '09 19:31
    Originally posted by black beetle
    If I was playing this postition with either colours I would offer a draw, for I cannot bring up a succesful plan for the White and at the same time I cannot find an attacking plan for the Black; please comment
    As I said, I'm new at this but I agree with your appraisal now too after trying to analyze the board. Although I still believe black stands better for the reasons listed above, the advantage is slight at best because white will have trouble attacking any of black's weak points while defending the back rank, and black will have trouble making headway without abandoning the backward pawns.

    One thought is that this apparent deadening of play on the board lies with the placement of the knight. Although it has found a stable post on c5, can't be kicked without white sacrificing the exchange, and prevents reinforcements from helping out on e3, it is also tied to the defense of b7 and can't move without blocking other black pieces from helping defend b7. If white maintains pressure there, the black knight can't become active without conceding space and material, and black can't otherwise defend without creating a weakness on the f-file (the black bishop seems to be no help on the queenside).

    The above may be totally wrong, can someone with a rating higher than the price of a Mexican vacation please help?
  10. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    24 Feb '09 19:48
    This position was after black 23rd move in quite well known game Polugaevsky-Petrosian, played in USSR championship in 1983. White blundered in next move 24.Rb6?? and resigned after 24...Na4.

    But in diagram position according to Kasparov "After 24.Kh1 Bxe3 25.Rb1 Bg5 26.Bd3 f5 Black has full compensation for exchange and its easier to play for Black as it`s not easy to see how White can make any progress".

    Here is all game. Its really pitty that it was decided by single blunder
  11. 24 Feb '09 19:51
    Originally posted by Korch
    White blundered in next move 24.Rb6??
    I told you that Rook was not paying attention :-))
  12. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    24 Feb '09 19:51
    Here is another position.

    White to move again.
  13. 24 Feb '09 19:52
    Originally posted by Korch
    Here is another position.
    [fen]6k1/p2n4/4r1pp/qPbN1p2/P1PppP2/7P/4Q1PK/R2R4 w - - 0 37[/fen]
    White to move again.
    Must we find a game-losing blunder in one move again or just evaluate?
  14. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    24 Feb '09 19:55
    Originally posted by heinzkat
    Must we find a game-losing blunder in one move again or just evaluate?
    Just evaluate of course
  15. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    24 Feb '09 20:02
    I think in this example I prefer White after 1. g4! He's opening the g-file for his rook(s), and Black's king and pieces look a bit uncoordinated to defend against this. 1...d3? is obviously met by 2. Rxd3, and Black would be much worse after 1...fxg4, so he probably has to allow 2. gxf5 gxf5 followed by either 3. Qh5 or 3. Rg1+, both of which are probably going to hurt a little bit.