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  1. 04 Mar '07 01:33 / 1 edit
    it's been mentioned a lot in a few previos threads, so i just thought id dedicate one thread to the subject...
    1. e4 e6
    2. d4 d5
    3. exd exd

    some people seem to think that black has advantage here...
    and that goes against one of the biggest principles I know:
    in a symmetrical position, except in cases uf zugzwang, the player to move has advantage
    does this mean the the exchange is good for white?
    why is it not played more often at GM level?
  2. Standard member Diet Coke
    Forum Vampire
    04 Mar '07 01:37
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    it's been mentioned a lot in a few previos threads, so i just thought id dedicate one thread to the subject...
    1. e4 e6
    2. d4 d5
    3. exd exd

    some people seem to think that black has advantage here...
    and that goes against one of the biggest principles I know:
    in a symmetrical position, except in cases uf zugzwang, the player to move has advanta ...[text shortened]... oes this mean the the exchange is good for white?
    why is it not played more often at GM level?
    😴
  3. 04 Mar '07 01:37
    Originally posted by Diet Coke
    😴
    way to brilliantly refute my point
  4. Standard member Diet Coke
    Forum Vampire
    04 Mar '07 01:41 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    way to brilliantly refute my point
    Let's play.

    Edit: I tried to challenge rubberjaw, but my rating is to high for him.
  5. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    04 Mar '07 01:43
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    it's been mentioned a lot in a few previos threads, so i just thought id dedicate one thread to the subject...
    1. e4 e6
    2. d4 d5
    3. exd exd

    some people seem to think that black has advantage here...
    and that goes against one of the biggest principles I know:
    in a symmetrical position, except in cases uf zugzwang, the player to move has advanta ...[text shortened]... oes this mean the the exchange is good for white?
    why is it not played more often at GM level?
    This position is regarded as equal because the player to move no longer has the advantage that existed four moves earlier. As dynamism leaves the position, being on move is of less consequence.
  6. Standard member UmbrageOfSnow
    All Bark, No Bite
    04 Mar '07 01:55
    For completeness sake, if this thread ever comes up again, this is the link to my game with rubberjaw as posted in the other thread. Game 3263598
  7. 04 Mar '07 01:56
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    This position is regarded as equal because the player to move no longer has the advantage that existed four moves earlier. As dynamism leaves the position, being on move is of less consequence.
    i know/realize/acknowledge that
    the argument that i am making for the exchange is for GM/master level play only...
    could a GM convert an advantage out of this against someone else rated about the same?
  8. 04 Mar '07 02:00
    Agreed. As black you can usually count on one of three things:

    1) White will play carefully, avoiding too many piece exchanges and a draw will arrive. Usually when the white player doesn't want to lose.

    2) White will try to exchange everything and arrive at an endgame which should draw. Though the best endgame player may win in that case.

    3) White will go crazy with Queen sorties and one move threats only to find himself behind in development or positionally weak. French players are used to seeing this and say 'Thank you'.
  9. 04 Mar '07 02:53
    Originally posted by giantrobot
    Agreed. As black you can usually count on one of three things:

    1) White will play carefully, avoiding too many piece exchanges and a draw will arrive. Usually when the white player doesn't want to lose.

    2) White will try to exchange everything and arrive at an endgame which should draw. Though the best endgame player may win in that case.

    3) ...[text shortened]... evelopment or positionally weak. French players are used to seeing this and say 'Thank you'.
    can anyone find a GM game with this line?
    i don't know what sites to go to, and gogle always gives me a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with what I am looking for...
    too bad wikipedia doesn't offer a chess database by opening...
  10. Standard member UmbrageOfSnow
    All Bark, No Bite
    04 Mar '07 03:00
    I'd look up if anything matches us, but I don't want to while were in the middle of the game, I'll figure out what I can over the board now, and I'll see if I can find a GM link later.
  11. 04 Mar '07 03:03
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    I'd look up if anything matches us, but I don't want to while were in the middle of the game, I'll figure out what I can over the board now, and I'll see if I can find a GM link later.
    good idea...
    after it, we can devote either this thread or the other one to the analysis of our game...
    i can type in the moves, provide FEN boards for key positions, and stuff...
    get some of the other guys to go over it with us...
    if you would like to analyze it...
  12. Standard member UmbrageOfSnow
    All Bark, No Bite
    04 Mar '07 03:07
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    good idea...
    after it, we can devote either this thread or the other one to the analysis of our game...
    i can type in the moves, provide FEN boards for key positions, and stuff...
    get some of the other guys to go over it with us...
    if you would like to analyze it...
    Yeah, I'm up for that. How long are you going to be making moves tonight? If we go decently quick maybe we'll finish it now, but maybe not, either way I say we analyze it here later.
  13. 04 Mar '07 03:08
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    good idea...
    after it, we can devote either this thread or the other one to the analysis of our game...
    i can type in the moves, provide FEN boards for key positions, and stuff...
    get some of the other guys to go over it with us...
    if you would like to analyze it...
    Rubberjaw, I understand your point - but your missing a lot of the ideas.

    You're right, a lot of times the player to move with a mirrored position may have a slight advantage - but that's nothing to rave about - and a lot of times never means never. The 3 other main systems just give white MORE advantage than the exchange - the Advanced gains center space, the other two develop a piece and 3.Nc3 also adds pressure to the black center. The exchange does none of these things.
  14. 04 Mar '07 03:12 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    Yeah, I'm up for that. How long are you going to be making moves tonight? If we go decently quick maybe we'll finish it now, but maybe not, either way I say we analyze it here later.
    i'm staying up until my mother decideds that if i stay up any later, i will be cranky for church...
    then i'll stay up another 15 minutes until she starts to scream/whine, and then i will have to go on to bed...


    edit: scratch that: she just came in and told me...
    i'll go get a shower, come back, probably make a few more moves, and have to leave...
    we'll finish this later then...
  15. 04 Mar '07 03:17
    Well, only 11 games matched the position around move 7. Look here if you want:

    http://chessmob.org/games/frenchrhp/dgt_chesstheatre.htm