Originally posted by Saint Nickahhh .. the English .. I remember ... Game 533968
The book series is called "Play winning chess, tactics, openings, etc". Great set of books!
NicolaiS, If you want to try another unusual opening, try the English! My fav, so I had to throw it out there. I think it is more solid than the Bird and very versitile. And it is played by top grandmasters. 😀
hmmm ...didn't make much mistakes in that match... just enough to lose it 😏
Originally posted by NicolaiSYou should ask Cribs about the English....
ahhh .. the English .. I remember ... Game 533968
hmmm ...didn't make much mistakes in that match... just enough to lose it 😏
He's seen it many times on both side of the board and still can't speak it properly 😛
Originally posted by RavelloYeh, try it out! You need to be careful to plan your black bishop development early though as it can become 'bad' really easily 😉
I took a look at Bird's at chessgames,it's a quite unusual opening,none of the well known masters play it,however the line f4,Nf3,g3,Bg2 sounds quite interesting to play for white,even if it can reveal as a double-cut weapon...........thanks to paultopia and everyone who answered,I'm going to give a try to Bird's opening and will let you know how it's gone.
Originally posted by ExyLook up Anatoly Karpov v's Tony Miles, think it was around 1985 or so. Miles won with 1.e4 ..a3?? 2.d4 ..b4????????. Obviously he had prepared it specifically for karpov, who is some what predictable as white (though obviously bloody hard to beat 😉)
I've started opening with A4 or H4 in some of my games against LivingLegend, initially I did it to amuse and confuse him but I'm sure there is the germ of a good opening in there somewhere. I then move the pawn to A/H4 and follow it up with my Rook.
I've not got anywhere but into a mess with it so far but why don't you just go ahead and try out these unconventional openings and see where they take you.
Originally posted by marinakatomb1980. 1. e4 a6 2. d4 b5
Look up Anatoly Karpov v's Tony Miles, think it was around 1985 or so. Miles won with 1.e4 ..a3?? 2.d4 ..b4????????. Obviously he had prepared it specifically for karpov, who is some what predictable as white (though obviously bloody hard to beat 😉)
1...a6 and 2...b5 aren't great moves, of course, but they do form part of a plan and do not deserve multiple question marks 🙂
I am sure GM Miles had prepared extensively, but the defense had been known at the time for at least about 112 years.
Formerly known as Baker's Defense, the opening was dubbed the St. George Defense by IM Basman, after the game to which you refer. It is the second time in recorded history that a world champion has been beaten by an Englishman who played 1...a6!
Here's Karpov-Miles:
[Event "Ch Europe (team) (1/2 final)"]
[Site "Scara (Sweden)"]
[Date "1980.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Karpov Anatoly"]
[Black "Miles Anthony J"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B00"]
1. e4 a6 2. d4 b5 3. Nf3 Bb7 4. Bd3 Nf6 5. Qe2 e6 6. a4 c5 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. Nbd2 b4 9. e5 Nd5 10. Ne4 Be7 11. O-O Nc6 12. Bd2 Qc7 13. c4 bxc3 14. Nxc3 Nxc3 15. Bxc3 Nb4 16. Bxb4 Bxb4 17. Rac1 Qb6 18. Be4 O-O 19. Ng5 h6 20. Bh7+ Kh8 21. Bb1 Be7 22. Ne4 Rac8 23. Qd3 Rxc1 24. Rxc1 Qxb2 25. Re1 Qxe5 26. Qxd7 Bb4 27. Re3 Qd5 28. Qxd5 Bxd5 29. Nc3 Rc8 30. Ne2 g5 31. h4 Kg7 32. hxg5 hxg5 33. Bd3 a5 34. Rg3 Kf6 35. Rg4 Bd6 36. Kf1 Be5 37. Ke1 Rh8 38. f4 gxf4 39. Nxf4 Bc6 40. Ne2 Rh1+ 41. Kd2 Rh2 42. g3 Bf3 43. Rg8 Rg2 44. Ke1 Bxe2 45. Bxe2 Rxg3 46. Ra8 Bc7 0-1
Originally posted by huntingbearYes that's the game!!! (derr, e4 ..a3, what the hell am i saying🙄)
1980. 1. e4 a6 2. d4 b5
1...a6 and 2...b5 aren't great moves, of course, but they do form part of a plan and do not deserve multiple question marks 🙂
I am sure GM Miles had prepared extensively, but the defense had been known at the time for at least about 112 years.
Formerly known as Baker's Defense, the opening was dubbed the St. George Def ...[text shortened]... Bc6 40. Ne2 Rh1+ 41. Kd2 Rh2 42. g3 Bf3 43. Rg8 Rg2 44. Ke1 Bxe2 45. Bxe2 Rxg3 46. Ra8 Bc7 0-1
The question marks are there because once white knows blacks plan, it is a hopelessly flawed start to a game. I wonder if it was bravery or desperation on Miles's part that drove him to play this line?? I mean, would you play this against Bbarr or David Tebb? Not bloody likely! It *requires* best play on blacks part, and even that isn't garanteed to reap an advantage if white plays well.
To be honest, i was using the question marks quite liberally, though i have to wonder how many Karpov would give them after that game 😕
Originally posted by marinakatombIf that's you in your profile, I don't see the resemblance 🙂
😲😲😲Oh my Giddy gosh, do you realize you are my exact double!! Just took a look at your profile, you look just like me (or i look like you) That is sooooo wierd!!!😲😲😲😲
As a matter of fact, I did play 1...a6 and 1...b5 against bbarr! And if I ever play Tebb, I'll give it to him, too 🙂
Game 315397
5...bxa4? I knew this was bad, but was curious just how a strong player would go about exploiting it. As a result, my N can be chased from d5 by c4. So 6...Nf6? was probably also a mistake. I have, since that game, learned that when the N can't stay on d5 it should often go to b4. I think that would be an improvement on my 8...Ne7? and so on, with more mistakes to follow.
But I stand by my first four moves and I prefer 5...b4. I immediately began another game with bbarr as Black, hoping to play the same line with 5...b4 instead of 5...bxa4, but he opened 1.f4, to which I replied 1...b5!? 🙂
That game, however, is in progress.
A master as strong as Miles doesn't play bizarre openings out of desperation. I have read people crediting his win against Karpov to the champ's being put off by the unorthodox opening and losing his nerve. This is insane, as Miles is a Grand Master and played a great game.
Of course, so far as I know he has never repeated that line against Karpov 🙂
But I disagree with your general assessment of the St. George Defense. It does not lose by force, and it does not require perfect play to score points. It is, of course, unorthodox, and therefore inferior to the standard defenses. But it is not as bad as it looks!
Miles and Basman are not the only masters who play it or have played it. Boris Spassky on occasion played the Polish Defense 1.d4 b5 and with an early ...a6 transposed into a St. George position. Antoaneta Stefanova, a strong Bulgarian IM (she may have made GM by now, I'm not sure), has played it with much success.
In 1868 an amateur by the name of Baker defeated both Steinitz(!) and Blackburne(!) simultaneously with 1...a6, 2...b5, and 3...Bb7.
Don't get me wrong; I know the St. George is inferior. But it is no where near as bad as you make out! 😛🙂
Originally posted by huntingbearThat's very interesting, thanx 🙂 Obviously a lot of openings end up with black playing a6 and b5 without creating any weaknesses by doing so, it's just that chess is all about tempo, the moves are sound, they just don't force the issue at all. If white plays positionally and gains a lead in development, black is in trouble, simple as that really.
If that's you in your profile, I don't see the resemblance 🙂
As a matter of fact, I did play 1...a6 and 1...b5 against bbarr! And if I ever play Tebb, I'll give it to him, too 🙂
Game 315397
5...bxa4? I knew this was bad, but was curious just how a strong player would go about exploiting it. As a result, my N can be chased from d5 by c ...[text shortened]... e wrong; I know the St. George is inferior. But it is no where near as bad as you make out! 😛🙂
Originally posted by marinakatombOh, I agree with that, to an extent. I think our disagreement is about how much trouble. 🙂
If white plays positionally and gains a lead in development, black is in trouble, simple as that really.
I think White's best would be:
1. e4 a6 2. d4 b5 3. Nf3 Bb7 4. Bd3 e6 5. O-O c5 6. c3 Nf6
Then 7. Re1, 7. Qe2, or 7. Nbd2 gives White a clear advantage. 7. e5 or 7. Bg5 are also playable. I think 7. Re1 is best.
White has the advantage, but he is not winning.
We could look at it like Black is giving odds to White: St. George odds!
When Eeyore put extra weight on Tigger's shoes, he meant to keep Tigger from being able to bounce as high. But Tigger tried all the harder, and it was good exercise. When the sabotage was discovered and the weight removed, Tigger's practice with the weight had strengthened his legs so that he could jump even higher than ever before!
I like to think of playing the St. George Defense as exercise, a challenge! 🙂
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Originally posted by marinakatombMy own record isn't too relevant. After all, that will say more about my ability relative to my opponents' than it will about the objective soundness of the St. George Defense. However, my record here on RHP is quite good with the St. George. I'll get the numbers for you and post them in an edit to this post.
Sure, i agree with your analysis. It's an interesting line, looks like a typical beginners effort for about 4 or 5 moves but doesn't really leave black expossed. What sort of success do you have with it? Would be surprissed if the stats hold up.
EDIT:
Ok. On RHP, on the Black side of the St. George Defense, including transpositions from the Polish Defense and irregular White openings against which I employed the ...a6 ...b5 ...Bb7 formation:
Total Games: 27
I won: 24*
I lost: 2
Draws: 1
* that includes 2 wins by timeout, but I was at the advantage in both those games.
My record with the St. George Defense is clearly good. However, the opening is not as good as my record might suggest. In fact, I am not as good as that record suggests. I wish I were! 🙂
Originally posted by marinakatombI sometimes play 1... a6 2... b5 against players I'm playing for the first time. Never played it here on RHP, but have had some success with it on itsyourturn.com.
Sure, i agree with your analysis. It's an interesting line, looks like a typical beginners effort for about 4 or 5 moves but doesn't really leave black expossed. What sort of success do you have with it? Would be surprissed if the stats hold up.
I suppose, as long as Black blockades the centre, Black has chances on the queenside.
Luc
PS - I always thought it was called the Birmingham Defence!? I remember reading somewhere that Miles played this against Karpov in Birmingham.
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Take a look at this weird opening where White plays 1. f3?
1. f3 d5 2. f4 Bf5 3. Nf3 e6 4. g3 h5 5. Bg2 h4 6. Nxh4 Rxh4 7. gxh4 Qxh4+ 8. Kf1 Qxf4+ 9. Kg1 Nf6 10. e3 Qh4 11. Nc3 Nc6...
Yes...Black is winning in this game even with that gambit that should go in the hall of fame just because you want to cringe whenever you think about it...