First game with opening assistance from RHP Games explorer, AND...

DR85

Only Chess

01 Mar 12

DR85

Joined: 20 Jul 11
Moves: 6090

01 Mar 12

3 edits

2

A giant killing feat! (From a personal standpoint at least)...

I'm black, I chose 1. c5 as I've been practising the Sicilian to good effect in Blitz, and had been waiting for somebody to play 1.e4 in a rated game.

From then, up to move 4b, I chose the moves I 'liked best' from the RHP opening explorer, then broke from the suggestions to play my 'own' game. Perhaps to lucky effect, I hadn't intended to threaten his Queen, merely put pressure on the Rook, but when I eyeballed the 'guaranteed Queen pin' I knew I'd gotten lucky.

BUT, I feel kinda strange about this victory, the opening help certainly boosted my game, this is I believe the highest rated player I've beaten in rated competition. Not sure how to feel about the book, it's legal to use (as per TOS) but in a strange way feels underhand.

I feel kind of alright about it if I consider that I didn't necessarily go with the opening moves with the highest win ratio, rather chose the ones that felt 'more natural...

tvochess

Joined: 08 Apr 09
Moves: 20004

01 Mar 12

1

Originally posted by DR85
A giant killing feat! (From a personal standpoint at least)...

I'm black, I chose 1. c5 as I've been practising the Sicilian to good effect in Blitz, and had been waiting for somebody to play 1.e4 in a rated game.

From then, up to move 4b, I chose the moves I 'liked best' from the RHP opening explorer, then broke from the suggestions to play my 'own' game ...[text shortened]... ves with the highest win ratio, rather chose the ones that felt 'more natural...

I'm trying to give you some feedback... But it's hard, I think you played this game well. Although I think the reason of your victory is mainly to be found with the errors your opponent made. Sorry if it hurts your pride.

About the opening database usage, don't worry. This is correspondence chess, so it's allowed and you should be aware that also your opponents will use it (or other legal help).

By the way, you played only 6 moves occuring in the RHP database. Of which the first two are from sicilian opening lines you can find everywhere. And the next two are rather obvious (chasing away the bishop). Don't think you won because you were just copying moves from a database. You won because the opponent made mistakes and you didn't. What you did very good was punishing every mistake by your opponent. So, you made victory, not the opening database.

DR85

Joined: 20 Jul 11
Moves: 6090

01 Mar 12

Thanks! No that doesn't harm my pride at all, just playing a 1500 and not being easily turned over is inspiration enough that I might yet improve.

Just curious about your annotation regarding the Queenside pawn development, would you say that it's better as black to force his attacking pieces around with lots of early pawn movements, or better to develope pieces? On this occasion I went with the pawns, but it does seem to expose the back rank a bit. Is that what you mean by overstretched?

greenpawn34

e4

Joined: 06 May 08
Moves: 43363

01 Mar 12

🙂

Good game, It's all about spotting and punishing mistakes.
If your opponent does not make a blunder then how are you going to win?

My 🙂 ?

When TV mentioned 'over stetched' I was thinking right away, the lad is going
to come back and ask about that. I knew you would.

Over the years I have learned never to say too much when coaching.
It can lead to awkward questions you may think the lad is not yet ready to handle.
(also you need to have an answer ready. A good answer.)

But Good. If you don't ask how you going to learn.

(there is also a note from TV about castling which drops the white e-pawn.
but that's just note oversight, easily done, unless there is something lutking
should Black nick the e-pawn.)

Now give me about 45 minutes I have an example I'll pop on.

DR85

Joined: 20 Jul 11
Moves: 6090

01 Mar 12

1 edit

Thanks for your feedback, strangely enough I felt awkward as I typed that question as I thought it might be construed as a bit silly, or obvious. I'm glad it was expected 🙂

I was hoping he wouldn't castle at move 13, but expected it as to me it seemed the strongest move. I think perhaps he was coasting along as I often do (and often get punished for) when playing lower rated opposition.

Elsewhere, I've recently been made to pay for complacency in a rematch against a 1000 player....

greenpawn34

e4

Joined: 06 May 08
Moves: 43363

01 Mar 12

2 edits

Hi.

There are some good examples of over extended pawns out there.
It all depends which one grabs you . When the penny first drops.
I first saw this game when the final combo appeared in a magazine.
I like to look at complete games and find out how these things came about.

I was talking with Robbie on another thread about how the lead up play
can often be more instructive than the actual finishing combo.
I know I must have picked up something from the complete game because
I never forgot the ideas and I’m showing it now.

Sveshnikov - Sherbakov Russia 1991.
I don't know if this game has ever been used in another book to show extended
pawns and their drawback. And It might even be to some a terrible example
but it is what ever works for you.

e4 {I’ll skip through the opening just adding a few comments.}
.. c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 {This just iced my cake when I discovered it came from an opening I actually play.}
.. e6 4. O-O {Pawn move, piece move, piece move, castle. This is the opening for me.}
.. Nge7 5. c3 a6 6. Ba4 b5 7. Bc2 d5 8. e5 d4 9. Be4 Bb7 {Ok here were are. Black's Queenside pawns have gained loads of space and it's been 5 moves since white castled and no other piece is out. White now argues that the Q-side pawns  are too far up the board  soon and he will develop the rest of his pieces arguing just that.}
a4 {Usually the first blow when tackling that pawn formation.}
.. Ng6 {Black makes room for the Bishop to develop and hits the e-pawn.}
axb5 {Due to the advance Q-side pawns White can ignore the attack on his e-pawn.}
.. axb5 12. Rxa8 {That is the a1 Rook development problem solved.}
.. Bxa8 13. Na3 {The Knight pops out hitting a pawn. If Black takes the e-pawn then after the double exchange on e5 White plays Bxa8 Qxa8 Nxb5 threatening Nc7+ That is at the board analysis.  It's most likely what the Black player was thinking.}
.. Na7 {Black holds the b-pawn. If it drops off White has  Qa4 ideas, White is catching up (thanks to the over extended pawns) with his development, Black elects to keep lines closed. An OTB decision. Good or bad you can see the reasoning.}
Bxa8 Qxa8 15. Qb3 {The Queen develops hitting the b-pawn. The argument about over stretched pawns is going White's way.}
.. Qb7 16. cxd4 cxd4 17. Nxd4 {And all that remains of that once mighty looking Queenside is a lonely Joe on b5 which is under attack. White is a pawn ahead but the loose e5 pawn is Blacks.}
.. Bxa3 18. bxa3 Nxe5 19. Bb2 Nc4 {The extended Queenside argument is over and perhaps that's not too bad for Black. The threatened fork on d2 gives him to castle and he can cite a case about that isolated pawn on the open d-file.}
Qg3 {New argument. Those extended pawns and the moves cost defending them have left the King in the centre. of the board. The Queenside play was minor tactics now major tactics take over. Black cannot take on b2. 20...Nxb2 21Qxg7 Rf8 22.Nxe6! the Queen on b7 is loose.}
.. O-O {That looks like it is just asking to be mated but the obvious 21, Nf5 is answered by 21...f6 blocking the diagonal and holding g7.}
Bc3 {So as annoying as it is White has to make a defensive move.}
.. g6 {Obvious and perfectly understandable. Black cannot grab the a-pawn 21..Nxa4 22.Nxb5 wins a piece. I bet every move Black looked at all he saw was the d4 Knight going somewhere (and even to places it could not go...Ghosts.) to discover a mating attack on g7.}
d3 {White has spotted the shot of shots and goes for it. First he need the square e5 for his Queen}
.. Nb6 {Black goes here instead of taking the a-pawn. He can see White's next move...what he has missed is White's next next move.}
Qe5 Nd7 {Now get off that diagonal screams Black.}
Qg7+ {Now you know why I like this game.}
.. Kxg7 25. Nf5+ {Double check and.....}
.. Kg8 26. Nh6+ {....mate. White used the over extended pawns to catch up with his development at the same time hindering Black's. At the right moment he switched his attention to the Kingside. Then with the help of a mating pattern produced a cracker.}

DR85

Joined: 20 Jul 11
Moves: 6090

01 Mar 12

1

Thanks for the example, that made it look like an easy exploit - although I'd dare say from a high level of player, given that amazing Queen sac at the end!

SwissGambit

Caninus Interruptus

2014.05.01

Joined: 11 Apr 07
Moves: 92274

01 Mar 12

1 edit

Originally posted by DR85
A giant killing feat! (From a personal standpoint at least)...

I'm black, I chose 1. c5 as I've been practising the Sicilian to good effect in Blitz, and had been waiting for somebody to play 1.e4 in a rated game.

From then, up to move 4b, I chose the moves I 'liked best' from the RHP opening explorer, then broke from the suggestions to play my 'own' game 6. gxf3 Bf6xb2 17. Ra1a2 Qd8f6 18. Bf4e3 Bb2c3 0-1[/pgn]

Nothing lucky about it ... 3.Bb5? and 14.Qd2? were just bad moves by the opponent, and deserved punishment.

greenpawn34

e4

Joined: 06 May 08
Moves: 43363

01 Mar 12

I was PM'd this.

I was playing through the Sveshnikov game you referenced in the "first game with
op. assistance" thread and am wondering why white can't play 21 Nxe6?

The discovered attack on g7 combined with the threat of Nxf8 seems pretty strong.
Though of course it is nowhere as beautiful as the knight+bishop mate.

-------

I replied.

Hi

You could have posted in the forum. The other guys are really helpful.

Yes 21.Nxe6 looks good. but after 21...fxe6.

The Black Queen holds g7.

It's good you asked and don't feel at all bad because you missed it.

That is a common mistake when calculating pawn captures
not seeing what squares they don't cover anymore or seeing what files
and ranks (in this case rank) have been opened.

Hopefully now you won't miss moves like this in your games.
Always give every pawn move extra thought. You cannot undo a pawn move.

You are correct in pointing this out. I, in hindsight, should have added a note.

Cheers.

Kegge

Joined: 23 Nov 09
Moves: 140220

02 Mar 12

Originally posted by greenpawn34
I was PM'd this.

I was playing through the Sveshnikov game you referenced in the "first game with
op. assistance" thread and am wondering why white can't play 21 Nxe6?

The discovered attack on g7 combined with the threat of Nxf8 seems pretty strong.
Though of course it is nowhere as beautiful as the knight+bishop mate.

-------

I replied ...[text shortened]... are correct in pointing this out. I, in hindsight, should have added a note.

Cheers.

I was not the one who send the PM but had the same train of thought. Shows that reading these topics actually teaches us something. Thanks!

maitkenhead

Joined: 07 Feb 11
Moves: 27502

02 Mar 12

Everyone is going to laugh at me for this...

THERE'S A BLOODY GAMES EXPLORER!!?? Since when? I didn't know about this! What else that is blatantly obvious and well-known about have I been missing?

In addition to being ignorant, I am stupid. Obviously there is a link from the main page/my games page to this games explorer, but I cannot find it. If someone shows me where it is, I will be forever grateful.

tvochess

Joined: 08 Apr 09
Moves: 20004

02 Mar 12

Originally posted by DR85
Thanks! No that doesn't harm my pride at all, just playing a 1500 and not being easily turned over is inspiration enough that I might yet improve.

Just curious about your annotation regarding the Queenside pawn development, would you say that it's better as black to force his attacking pieces around with lots of early pawn movements, or better to develope pi ...[text shortened]... pawns, but it does seem to expose the back rank a bit. Is that what you mean by overstretched?

DR85,

I guess GP has shown clear enough what I meant with overstretched. Didn't know it's actually called overextended.

Whether or not to force moving around white's pieces with pawns? I think it's often done in the Ruy Lopez as well (I mean a6 and b5 chasing the bishop). Here of course, c5 was already played. It felt a bit like marking your territory and then watching from a distance whether the perimeter will hold. In general, piece development is a priority in the opening.

------------

GP,

Thanks for the corrections and clarifications. I know I'm not that experienced (both in the game as in annotations). The almost 250 games on this site, is about all the experience I have. Just trying to help another player by sharing opinions and thoughts. I don't just want to read the forum, ask for help/feedback without giving something in return.

About the castling annotation: I'm still convinced Nxf6 was not the best move there. Ok, I missed the loss of a pawn with O-O, but what do you think is better? Nxd4 followed by Bf3? Nc3? Nd2?

tvochess

Joined: 08 Apr 09
Moves: 20004

02 Mar 12

Maitkenhead,

there's no button:
www.redhotpawn.com/gamesexplorer

it also works from the other websites like chessatwork etc.

~~robbie carrobie~~

Joined: 26 Aug 07
Moves: 38239

02 Mar 12

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi.

There are some good examples of over extended pawns out there.
It all depends which one grabs you . When the penny first drops.
I first saw this game when the final combo appeared in a magazine.
I like to look at complete games and find out how these things came about.

I was talking with Robbie on another thread about how the lead up play
...[text shortened]... tion to the Kingside. Then with the help of a mating pattern produced a cracker.}[/pgn]

how refreshing to hear you talk of pawns and their importance upon the game GP, 😛

~~robbie carrobie~~

Joined: 26 Aug 07
Moves: 38239

02 Mar 12

1 edit

Here is a game which i think also illustrates the idea of over expansion in a rather
dramatic way.

Polgar v Shirov 1995