Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. Standard member nimzo5
    Ronin
    14 Oct '11 15:54
    Picked up a copy of fritz13 (havent felt the need to upgrade since something like fritz 7 or 8...) and I am a bit interested and disturbed by the new key feature.

    It appears that the "check it feature" connects you to an online database of analysis from a position. Since the default is automatically connected and you are rewarded by having credit for whatever you "publish" it seems to me that very soon there will be a massive amount of engine analysis out there. Much like the rhp game database (except that it is updated haha) this will be a resource that could far outstrip existing databases in no time. While in ICCF (engine assisted) play it probably wont stack up, in unassisted play this seems to be a real killjoy.

    Probably this should be addressed in the ToS? as it stands I would assume it counts as existing analysis since it is available to anyone but?
  2. 14 Oct '11 18:10 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    Picked up a copy of fritz13 (havent felt the need to upgrade since something like fritz 7 or 8...) and I am a bit interested and disturbed by the new key feature.

    It appears that the "check it feature" connects you to an online database of analysis from a position. Since the default is automatically connected and you are rewarded by having credit for whate it stands I would assume it counts as existing analysis since it is available to anyone but?
    So what you describe would be an effective and convenient way of referring to a good games database, which is legal in RHP. But it is not using the Fritz engine.
  3. 14 Oct '11 18:29
    Simple.

    Start with 1.a3 from now on and get everybody you know who plays online CC to play 1.a3 and tell them to do the same and so on and so forth until the database is full of junk on 1.a3.

    You then switch up without telling anybody while having a good laugh at all the nutters playing 1.a3.
  4. 14 Oct '11 19:17
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    Picked up a copy of fritz13 (havent felt the need to upgrade since something like fritz 7 or 8...) and I am a bit interested and disturbed by the new key feature.

    It appears that the "check it feature" connects you to an online database of analysis from a position. Since the default is automatically connected and you are rewarded by having credit for whate ...[text shortened]... it stands I would assume it counts as existing analysis since it is available to anyone but?
    I had a look at this and although it is interesting in principle, in actuality it is all but useless. The Let's Check thing shows you how many times someone has looked at a position, zero in the case of three out of the four positions I used, but doesn't show the result of any analysis done if you are not yourself analysing the position. The Live Book feature shows the usual success rate of moves from a given position if there is any information in the DB but also fails to show the results of any past analysis. I reckon my 50 euros will be better invested in beer and I'll just keep on updating my own database regularly.
  5. Standard member nimzo5
    Ronin
    14 Oct '11 20:10
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    I had a look at this and although it is interesting in principle, in actuality it is all but useless. The Let's Check thing shows you how many times someone has looked at a position, zero in the case of three out of the four positions I used, but doesn't show the result of any analysis done if you are not yourself analysing the position. The Live Book fea ...[text shortened]... ros will be better invested in beer and I'll just keep on updating my own database regularly.
    This is the first day of release, most positions will be "available". That being said I just turned off fritz, went and looked at a position and it lists the main variation and an eval. So it is like Caps but suggests a mainline as well.
  6. 14 Oct '11 20:30
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    This is the first day of release, most positions will be "available". That being said I just turned off fritz, went and looked at a position and it lists the main variation and an eval. So it is like Caps but suggests a mainline as well.
    Seems to be mainly useful in openings and not really any different to any of several other commercially available databases with computer evaluations, except the evaluation is only +, +-, = etc rather than a score for the position. If you turn on infinite analysis you do get a mainline and score shown but that's no use if you aren't supposed to be turning the engine on! I am still not convinced it is worth 50 euros.
  7. Standard member nimzo5
    Ronin
    14 Oct '11 20:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    Seems to be mainly useful in openings and not really any different to any of several other commercially available databases with computer evaluations, except the evaluation is only +, +-, = etc rather than a score for the position. If you turn on infinite analysis you do get a mainline and score shown but that's no use if you aren't supposed to be turning the engine on! I am still not convinced it is worth 50 euros.
    Here is a twist as well, you can hit a button called lets check analysis and it can check the entire game vs the "let's check" and pulls all the analysis into the game as subvariations. You don't have to have an engine loaded to do this.

    An interesting idea for improving on the old blundercheck style analysis which takes far longer per game to do. In a year or two I am guessing this will be quite comprehensive as random players add analysis as they are looking at their own games.
  8. 14 Oct '11 21:09
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    Here is a twist as well, you can hit a button called lets check analysis and it can check the entire game vs the "let's check" and pulls all the analysis into the game as subvariations. You don't have to have an engine loaded to do this.

    An interesting idea for improving on the old blundercheck style analysis which takes far longer per game to do. In a yea ...[text shortened]... e quite comprehensive as random players add analysis as they are looking at their own games.
    Hmmm, just had a look at that. It still only kicks in on move five of most of my games though. I wonder how fast it will grow? I also wonder whether or not it counst as engine analysis even though one is not running an engine.
  9. 14 Oct '11 21:17 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    Hmmm, just had a look at that. It still only kicks in on move five of most of my games though. I wonder how fast it will grow? I also wonder whether or not it counst as engine analysis even though one is not running an engine.
    It seems that it just uses the internet as an engine where the engine gets better the more information that is "published."

    This is my conclusion based on what has been stated by you and nimzo5.

    If this is true than over time anybody relying on this will have high enough matchup rates to be banned and thus should refrain from using it on any site where engine use is against the TOS.
  10. Standard member nimzo5
    Ronin
    14 Oct '11 21:20
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    Hmmm, just had a look at that. It still only kicks in on move five of most of my games though. I wonder how fast it will grow? I also wonder whether or not it counst as engine analysis even though one is not running an engine.
    It will grow fast, since it is the default. The computer chess guys wont bother with it, but the masses who play over their own games and master games with an engine will be adding to the cloud quickly. I am bored and adding my "analysis" to Spassky- Bronstein 1960.

    Probably do TLAG's Boleslavky-Flohr next.
  11. 14 Oct '11 21:28
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    It seems that it just uses the internet as an engine where the engine gets better the more information that is "published."

    This is my conclusion based on what has been stated by you and nimzo5.

    If this is true than over time anybody relying on this will have high enough matchup rates to be banned and thus should refrain from using it on any site where engine use is against the TOS.
    That was my thinking. Right, I shall invest the 50 euros in numerous beers rather than naff software. My mate can have his computer back now. Hopefully he won't be stupid enough to use Fritz 13 anywhere he shouldn't.
  12. Standard member nimzo5
    Ronin
    14 Oct '11 21:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    That was my thinking. Right, I shall invest the 50 euros in numerous beers rather than naff software. My mate can have his computer back now. Hopefully he won't be stupid enough to use Fritz 13 anywhere he shouldn't.
    Eh that is the problem. If this isn't specifically banned then matchup rates will go up, possibly way up- and the point isn't to ban people for matchup rates, but for actual cheating.
  13. 14 Oct '11 21:44
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    Eh that is the problem. If this isn't specifically banned then matchup rates will go up, possibly way up- and the point isn't to ban people for matchup rates, but for actual cheating.
    Maybe it won't be such a huge problem. I can see that this will increase match up rates in the opening but opening theory is already discounted for match up rates. I have a huge database (6 000 000+ games) and yet I am soon out of that even playing sensible moves rather than my habitual 1. g3. Chess is so vast that it is doubtful you will be caught with match ups if you do not slavishly follow the Let's Check lines. If you do, you have only yourself to blame! I would say that such stupidity actually is cheating in that you have used somebody else's computer to provide analysis - outside assistance in other words.
  14. 14 Oct '11 21:44 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    Eh that is the problem. If this isn't specifically banned then matchup rates will go up, possibly way up- and the point isn't to ban people for matchup rates, but for actual cheating.
    I think using any means that produce equivalent results must be deemed as an equal, even if different, process. Therefore, I don't think matchup rates will go up because one would still be using an engine, only through some sort of medium.

    Edit: However, the TOS of said sites should clarify that use of this feature constitutes engine use and will be treated as such.
  15. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    15 Oct '11 00:23
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    Eh that is the problem. If this isn't specifically banned then matchup rates will go up, possibly way up- and the point isn't to ban people for matchup rates, but for actual cheating.
    My understanding is that matchup rates only apply to a game for moves not found in the reference database.

    If this new "cloud" feature becomes the new reference database (or one of many reference databases), then matchup rates would only apply to moves not already found there.

    I'm begging the question on this a bit, but the reality is that if we follow the analysis of any decent chess opening book in the last few years, we're using computer analysis even when we don't precisely know it, so all this does is magnify and accelerate the amount of elapsed time before we have to address the elephant in the room.