Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 27 Jul '11 22:00 / 3 edits
    At my level I often have to play against opponents who seek an easy win by a queen strike in the opening. I know it's bad for you, so I don't do this, but I experience a lot of trouble handling this situation as a defender, especially in blitz and bullet, but also here. (Yes, I am playing some games with this happening, but I'm not asking for any comments on them, nor am I going to mention them here again until they're finished.)

    My general question is: how can I improve this element? More particularly, are there any collections of patterns arising in these situations anywhere on the web? Any collections of (solved or not) problems? Do you have any general remarks on this?

    My main problem is that the queen is very mobile, so it's difficult to actually trap her. When I analyze some situations, I see that there is no way to do that. She often has ways to find a safe spot somewhere on her third row. (And threaten my pawns or even the king.) How can I capitalize then? Another problem with this is that very careful play is often necessary in order not to get punished. It's impossible to be very careful in a bullet game, so I think the only way is to internalize as many patterns as possible. Am I right?
  2. 27 Jul '11 22:05
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    At my level I often have to play against opponents who seek an easy win by a queen strike in the opening. I know it's bad for you, so I don't do this, but I experience a lot of trouble handling this situation as a defender, especially in blitz and bullet, but also here. (Yes, I am playing some games with this happening, but I'm not asking for any comme ...[text shortened]... game, so I think the only way is to internalize as many patterns as possible. Am I right?
    Don't focus on the queen unless you can forcefully trap it. Just develop your pieces and you will gain time because eventually the queen will have to retreat... early queen sorties tend to lead to checkmates more than queen traps in my experience.
  3. 27 Jul '11 22:17
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Don't focus on the queen unless you can forcefully trap it. Just develop your pieces and you will gain time because eventually the queen will have to retreat... early queen sorties tend to lead to checkmates more than queen traps in my experience.
    I try to do this, but often, I find the opponent's queen coordinated with his other pieces in the end. For example, she lands behind a bishop that pins my knight to either my king (usually) or my queen (rarely) and I don't see ways to get her out of there. Or, she lands on the kingside, right in front of my opponents pawns, attacking my castled king. There's usually no direct threat, but my development fails to capitalize on the fact that she's come out too early.
  4. 27 Jul '11 22:24


    Do you think black should now win?
  5. 27 Jul '11 22:33 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    I try to do this, but often, I find the opponent's queen coordinated with his other pieces in the end. For example, she lands behind a bishop that pins my knight to either my king (usually) or my queen (rarely) and I don't see ways to get her out of there. Or, she lands on the kingside, right in front of my opponents pawns, attacking my castled king. T ct threat, but my development fails to capitalize on the fact that she's come out too early.
    Just try to control the center like normal develop all your pieces. Just treat the game like normal... I know how it is because I use to focus on that queen and would try to punish her asap but that isn't how it goes. By bringing the queen out so early your opponent tends to upset the equilibrium this means that you should plan to attack because you will have the initiative. Early queen sorties aren't always blunders and most of the time there is no way to immediately capitalize they are just weak moves so you should assemble your pieces actively and keep an eye out for ways to take away your opponents castling rights (In my experience this is easier when the queen moves away early).

    Basically it isn't anything special. You just need to study tactics and play over master games... there isn't really any specific way of taking advantage of an early queen sortie except developing with tempi.

    edit: Also I tend to let my opponent go hunting pawns with his/her queen if they want to because it allows me to gain time... the best way to take care of threats is by creating even more dangerous counter threats where possible.
  6. 27 Jul '11 22:55
    Originally posted by torten
    [fen]rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p2Q/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1KBNR b KQkq - 0 2[/fen]

    Do you think black should now win?
    Yes, according to Wikipedia, and even according to my games, although I do lose this often enough. It's definitely the most common one. The play often goes something like this:

    or this:

    or this:


    In any case, the castle for my king is weakened, and in the last case my bishop is blocked. In all those positions, it looks like I have the advantage, but it's far too small an advantage for me to win. I don't know how to attack later, and after I castle and get the rest of my pieces out, I find myself struggling to find any plan. Unless my opponent blunders of course. And the opponent's queen starts working.

    But this one is so common that I've learned all the moves, and at least I won't blunder early.
  7. 27 Jul '11 23:01 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    Yes, according to Wikipedia, and even according to my games, although I do lose this often enough. It's definitely the most common one. The play often goes something like this:
    [pgn]1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 3. Bc4 g6 4. Qf3 Nf6 5. Qb3 Nd4 6. Qc3 b5 *[/pgn]
    or this:
    [pgn]1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 3. Bc4 g6 4. Qf3 Nf6 5. c3 Bc5 *[/pgn]
    or this:
    [pgn]1. e4 e5 2 this one is so common that I've learned all the moves, and at least I won't blunder early.
    This is what I normally do

  8. 27 Jul '11 23:19
    I'm too scared of giving away my pawns this way... Interestingly, here's what Stockfish plays after this:
  9. 27 Jul '11 23:27 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    I'm too scared of giving away my pawns this way... Interestingly, here's what Stockfish plays after this:
    [pgn]
    1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nf6 3. Qxe5+ Be7 4. Qf4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Bd6 6. Qh4 Be7 7. Qf4 Bd6 8. Qh4 Be7 9. Qf4 1/2-1/2
    [/pgn]
    Make stockfish play 5...0-0 instead... I'm curious to see the results. Anyway, the fact that it ends in a draw means that black has at least equalized in this line which is blacks goal in all openings.
  10. 27 Jul '11 23:28
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    Yes, according to Wikipedia, and even according to my games, although I do lose this often enough.
    Well,there's your problem then.You think you should be able to outright refute it.
    It's not possible.You know how to fend off the immediate attacks,good.Now just play chess!

    Btw,could you link me to that wiki page?Interested to see what it says
  11. 27 Jul '11 23:34
    Originally posted by torten
    Well,there's your problem then.You think you should be able to outright refute it.
    It's not possible.You know how to fend off the immediate attacks,good.Now just play chess!

    Btw,could you link me to that wiki page?Interested to see what it says
    It is called the parham attack AKA wayward queen attack AKA danvers attack AKA patzer opening and after reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parham_Attack I am tempted to try it out.
  12. 27 Jul '11 23:42
    Originally posted by torten
    Well,there's your problem then.You think you should be able to outright refute it.
    It's not possible.You know how to fend off the immediate attacks,good.Now just play chess!

    Btw,could you link me to that wiki page?Interested to see what it says
    The page is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parham_Attack It actually says it's playable -- that was my memory playing tricks on me.

    I must rephrase my "yes" though. I didn't think about it being a refutable opening. I was thinking about my game against opponents at my level. The opening isn't very good and I often get a clear advantage of which I should be able to, well, take advantage, that is win, because draws almost never happen at my level. But I do not always do. And the queen sometimes becomes a threat.

    However, again, this particular opening is my least concern. My problems begin when I don't know any lines and have to think something up on the spot. I often spend half of my time trying to find out whether I can trap a queen or not. And then get crushed by some blow I haven't considered.
  13. 27 Jul '11 23:50
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Make stockfish play 5...0-0 instead... I'm curious to see the results. Anyway, the fact that it ends in a draw means that black has at least equalized in this line which is blacks goal in all openings.
    After giving an advantage to white for about a minute, it ends up doing the exact same thing.
  14. 28 Jul '11 00:32
    Just now, in the exact minute of posting, I finished this game.

  15. 28 Jul '11 02:16
    The way to beat someone who has developed their queen too early is to build up a huge lead in development by attacking the queen every chance you get. Nc6/Nc3 is typically a very good answer to an early queen move. When the queen moves it leaves c2 unprotected and the knight can attack c2 with either Nd4 or Nb4. Frequently the knight can play Nd4/Nd5 with tempo at some point.