How fast are the chess engines?

Originally posted by Bedlam
There are ways.......although you do need to know if you're playing a computer before hand. I'll show you an example, a 1900 player drawing a 2800 engine. The 1900 is quite an expert at playing anti computer chess.


[Event "Partida evaluada, 3m + 2s"]
[Site "Sala de máquinas"]
[Date "2006.05.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Father"]
[Black "BertvdMosel"]
...[text shortened]... {2} Kb7 {2}
275. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kc8 {4} 276. Rc1 {1} Kb7 1/2-1/2

😲 How does this help?

Originally posted by blowfish
I keep wondering if there is a way to dis-empower the engines (other than moving every 5 seconds).

you can't play fast enough for that. but you can wait until the game ends, then put it into fritz and see how it goes down. if you still think he was using an engine, contact the game mods.

I little sanity check you could do, is think for a second if it's possible to be at his rating level using an engine. meaning: engine users are mostly 2000+, as it would take a complete moron to be less than that with engine helping. so, if your opponent is around 1400 (I'm guessing he is), it's just paranoia.

Originally posted by blowfish
I keep wondering if there is a way to dis-empower the engines (other than moving every 5 seconds).

Play closed, strategical games. Without much tactics.

(most) engines are designed to calculate their way to a better position by means of tactics. Strategical moves are long-term moves, engines can't calculate that far.

Check out this game: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1269891&kpage=1
After 12. b6 the game is completely closed, the computer doesn't know what to do. He only makes useless moves then.

Originally posted by blowfish
wow. thanks for the information. I'm thinking, then, there is no way to beat the engine (for me) because I usually take at least 3 or 4 minutes to make a move.

No one playing at our rating level is using Fritz, so don't worry about it, and don't buy it to check in progress games.

fritz, shredder, etc., need only 10 seconds a move to crush anybody below expert level. Even 5 would be plenty.

Originally posted by lausey
Yes, a reasonably good player is very likely to match up with an engine near the beginning of the game, considering it is still the opening.

Redundant Point -

computers use opening books - and the rules of RHP state we are allowed to use opening books.

so seeing as I sometimes use Fritz.ctg its no supprise Our moves match up in the opening.

Originally posted by Shinidoki
Redundant Point -

computers use opening books - and the rules of RHP state we are allowed to use opening books.

so seeing as I sometimes use Fritz.ctg its no supprise Our moves match up in the opening.

What is Fritz.ctg?

Is it a great opening library that will make my books redundant?

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
What is Fritz.ctg?

Is it a great opening library that will make my books redundant?

.ctg is the format chessbase use.

Fritz.ctg is the opening book that comes with the engine.


BTW: - you do realise that the type of "opening book" I am talking about isn't one for humans printed on paper?

Originally posted by Shinidoki
.ctg is the format chessbase use.

Fritz.ctg is the opening book that comes with the engine.


BTW: - you do realise that the type of "opening book" I am talking about isn't one for humans printed on paper?

I do realise its a computer database.

Only I thought anything to do with Fritz was banned.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Only I thought anything to do with Fritz was banned.

nope. getting outside help gets you banned, meaning advice from other people, engines or tablebases. but books and databases are specifically approved. you can do all kinds of things with fritz without using it's engine. like use it's limited database or it's opening book. although it's opening book is optimized to fit the needs of a computer, not the needs of a human player. meaning it's not big on positional lines.

Originally posted by marinakatomb
😲 How does this help?

Isnt it clear how the 1900 drawed against Rybka? Something most top level GM would find hard with normal play. The person was looking for anti computer games surely some 1900 drawing against the engine is slightly relevant? 😛

Originally posted by blowfish
Ok, so I've heard "instantaneous" for a good move, and "a long time" for a great move. I'm not looking for evidence that someone is using an engine, I'm trying to figure out how fast a game (how short a game) I should play to give a moderately good chance of knowing that if my opponent is going to use an engine, s/he is going to run out of time feeding it ...[text shortened]... e demo Fritz and it took ..."

Thanks very much for your time and understanding

I wonder how hard it would be to measure the length of time to make each move as a reason to suspect engine use.

For example, any human, even playing well would find themselves in some positions for which the move is pretty obvious, and others that could take longer. You would expect a human to have high variance in move times. Whereas using an engine would require overhead to setup the position, wait for an engine to generate a move, and then enter the move. If you watch all of a persons games, an engine user would likely be more consistent in how quickly he/she moves, and what order he or she moves through the list of games needing a move.

The average user could not tell this, but a site administrator could store the time between first viewing an opponents move and entering a response and perhaps detect suspicious patterns. I human would likely look at an opponents move and perhaps sleep on a response for a difficult move, but would often move instantly for obvious moves.

Of course, I don't understand why someone would use engines, but I fully expect that some engine users would use engines for some moves, but not others.

Originally posted by wormwood
you can't play fast enough for that. but you can wait until the game ends, [b]then put it into fritz and see how it goes down. if you still think he was using an engine, contact the game mods.

I little sanity check you could do, is think for a second if it's possible to be at his rating level using an engine. meaning: engine users are mostly 2000+, a ...[text shortened]... ngine helping. so, if your opponent is around 1400 (I'm guessing he is), it's just paranoia.[/b]

one of the ppl listed as banned under 3b was only at around 1400 or so. So not all engine users are obvious Mary Anne types with insane ratings playing 90 games at a time.

Blowfish is playing a few higher lvl ppl, and even those engine users who were/are above 2000 had to work their way up to that rating, so they were at 1400 at some point.

I think what is likely at play is that you have to reach a certain lvl of play before you can recognize someone as a cheat and be suspicious. Playing someone at 14-1500 or so might not be able to just know they are facing an engine (I wouldnt I dont think), whereas the 1900 lvl ppl are more likely to be able to spot "suspicious moves".

I agree that if you arent at least above 1800 or so using an engine then what is the point, however, many of the cheats manage to get as much as 600 games in before being banned!

So the rating at the moment isnt necessarily a great indicator of the likelihood of a person cheating.

I imagine too once you get to a certain lvl losing is rare enough that you might be more suspicious and know enough about the game to recognize engine users.

Originally posted by Turanthor
one of the ppl listed as banned under 3b was only at around 1400 or so.

who? man, he must've been one colossal monument of idiocy... - the lowest I've seen was 1800, and I think even that was pretty incompetent use of a perfectly good engine. it gives me physical pain to even think how bad a 1400 engine user must suck at chess.

Originally posted by bedlam
[b]
There are ways.......although you do need to know if you're playing a computer before hand. I'll show you an example, a 1900 player drawing a 2800 engine. The 1900 is quite an expert at playing anti computer chess.


[Event "Partida evaluada, 3m + 2s"]
[Site "Sala de máquinas"]
[Date "2006.05.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Father"]
[Black "BertvdMos xt shortened]... {2} Kb7 {2}
275. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kc8 {4} 276. Rc1 {1} Kb7 1/2-1/2
b]

Interesting...

My assumption on the accomplishment of this feat is that since the human player didn't make any faulty attacks, and built himself a ver strong, sound, rather impenetrable position, the computer didn't know how to start the attack, resulting in an eventual draw.

Is this what happened?