How fast are the chess engines?

I'm thinking I might be playing against someone who is using an engine. How long does it take for the latest version of Fritz, or any of the other engines you might know of, to come up with a good move?

Originally posted by blowfish
I'm thinking I might be playing against someone who is using an engine. How long does it take for the latest version of Fritz, or any of the other engines you might know of, to come up with a good move?

If you mean by 'good move' a move that is better than your best move at your rating (and mine) - I would say near to instantanuously.

But if you want a really good move, a move you have no chance to find yourself - well, it take a little while more.

A search of 3 ply would be good enough to beat most "beginers" - depending on the hardware (and for that matter the archietecture of software) could be sucessfully completed within a secound.

To beat GM's however, they probably need to look 20 moves (40ply) ahead, and seeing a the time required for every new search depth (exponential) It can take a long time - on fast hardware with large hash tables, table bases, databases etc the time required can be reduced significantly....


If your only shred of "evidence" is that they move quickly you don't have a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by blowfish
I'm thinking I might be playing against someone who is using an engine.

If you suspect someone of using an engine, PM me or one of the other game moderators, stating the reasons for your suspicion.

You don't need "a leg to stand on" but the better your reasoning, the higher the priority your complaint will receive.

We do not provide any feedback on complaints. At some point in the future, if your suspicions are proved correct, the player in question will be banned.

Ok, so I've heard "instantaneous" for a good move, and "a long time" for a great move. I'm not looking for evidence that someone is using an engine, I'm trying to figure out how fast a game (how short a game) I should play to give a moderately good chance of knowing that if my opponent is going to use an engine, s/he is going to run out of time feeding it the move.

So I'll repeat my question, does anyone know how long? And if you reply "I've got Fritz and it takes x minutes to go to depth n" I'm not going to assume you use it when we play. I'm going to thank you for the information. You could even say, "I saw someone demo Fritz and it took ..."

Thanks very much for your time and understanding

Originally posted by blowfish


So I'll repeat my question, does anyone know how long?

"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. " - Charles Babbage

One second.

RHP does not offer a time control short enough to lend confidence that your opponent has insufficient time to use an engine.

No cheater wily enough to use an engine in the first place is dumb enough to let it think so long that he will time out while it is thinking.

Originally posted by blowfish
Ok, so I've heard "instantaneous" for a good move, and "a long time" for a great move. I'm not looking for evidence that someone is using an engine, I'm trying to figure out how fast a game (how short a game) I should play to give a moderately good chance of knowing that if my opponent is going to use an engine, s/he is going to run out of time feeding it the move.

If your hypothetical engine-abusing opponent is only playing against you then s/he is not going to "run out of time feeding it the move." The game is loaded and doesn't have to be reloaded. S/he only has to mimic your last move, and then follow the engine's suggestion. That could take as little as a second or two per move. No reason to suspect that you could ever out-blitz an engine under these circumstances.

In a live online game, I would feel pretty comfortable that an engine user could not compete with a 2minute time limit and 5 second increment, t takes atleast 10 seconds to feed the engine the move, than wait for the reply, if I suspect they're using an engine, I will make my moves instaneously so they will for sure run out of time.

Originally posted by HomerJSimpson
In a live online game, I would feel pretty comfortable that an engine user could not compete with a 2minute time limit and 5 second increment, t takes atleast 10 seconds to feed the engine the move, than wait for the reply, if I suspect they're using an engine, I will make my moves instaneously so they will for sure run out of time.

On Playchess they sometimes allow engines to play in the main room if the user delares it (normally people who want to play against engines just go to the engine room) anyway "Comp Hiarcs" is rated 3239 for bullet games (1-3 mins) and 3149 for blitz games (probably around 3-4 mins)

To give you some idea how that stands
-------------- Bullet Blitz
Comp Hiarcs 3239 3149
Gata Kamsky ----- 3061
Yasser Seirawan ---- 2991
Nigel Short ---- 2867
Micheal Adams ---- 3011
Star wars (Hikaru Nakamura) 3342 3153
Shakhriyar Mamedyarov 3404 3153

wow. thanks for the information. I'm thinking, then, there is no way to beat the engine (for me) because I usually take at least 3 or 4 minutes to make a move, sometimes ten to look at all the angles. Many times I just want to sleep on it and see it again in the morning.

I'm thinking it's small potatoes to simply buy Fritz and put my move into it. If my opponent's moves are identical to Fritz's, I can send a report to the appropriate moderator.

I keep wondering if there is a way to dis-empower the engines (other than moving every 5 seconds).

Originally posted by blowfish
wow. thanks for the information. I'm thinking, then, there is no way to beat the engine (for me) because I usually take at least 3 or 4 minutes to make a move, sometimes ten to look at all the angles. Many times I just want to sleep on it and see it again in the morning.

I'm thinking it's small potatoes to simply buy Fritz and put my move into it. If ...[text shortened]... wondering if there is a way to dis-empower the engines (other than moving every 5 seconds).

There are ways.......although you do need to know if you're playing a computer before hand. I'll show you an example, a 1900 player drawing a 2800 engine. The 1900 is quite an expert at playing anti computer chess.


[Event "Partida evaluada, 3m + 2s"]
[Site "Sala de máquinas"]
[Date "2006.05.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Father"]
[Black "BertvdMosel"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A45"]
[WhiteElo "1906"]
[BlackElo "2688"]
[Annotator "Restrepo,Pablo"]
[PlyCount "552"]
[EventDate "2006.05.11"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{MAN VS MACHINE THE FIGHT THE COMBAT THE CHALLENGER................FATHER VS
RYBKA 1.2. TEST 9.VPLAYCHESS MAY 11 TH 2006} 1. d4 {1} Nf6 {0} 2. e3 {1} d5 {0}
3. c3 {1} e6 {0} 4. f4 {1} Nc6 {-0.18/11 8} 5. Nf3 {3} Bd6 {7} 6. Bd3 {
-0.08/12 0} O-O {9} 7. O-O {(Se5) -0.04/11 0} b6 {17} 8. Qe2 {(Sbd2) -0.03/12 0
} Bb7 {9} 9. Re1 {(Sbd2) -0.03/10 0} h6 {6} 10. Nbd2 {-0.10/10 0} a5 {6} 11.
Nf1 {(Se5) -0.07/10 0} Ne7 {-0.11/10 6} 12. g3 {(Sg3) 2} Nf5 {-0.29/11 7} 13.
Qd1 {(S1d2) 2} c5 {-0.38/10 9} 14. Re2 {(Se5) 2} Qe7 {-0.48/9 5} 15. Re1 {
(Dc2) 2} c4 {-0.48/9 6} 16. Bc2 {(Lxf5) 7} Rfd8 {-0.38/10 7} 17. Qe2 {(Se5) 3}
h5 {-0.33/10 6} 18. h4 {(Se5) 2} b5 {-0.52/9 4} 19. Bd2 {(Se5) 2} Qc7 {
-0.51/10 7} 20. a3 {(Se5) 2} Qb6 {-0.56/11 13} 21. Bd1 {(Se5) 1} g6 {-0.66/10 5
} 22. Kg2 {(Se5) 1} Ne4 {-0.66/9 4} 23. Bc2 {(Sg5) 7} f6 {-0.77/9 3} 24. Kh2 {
(Ted1) 2} b4 {-0.78/9 11} 25. Reb1 {(cxb4) 8} b3 {-1.02/10 4} 26. Bd1 {
(Lxe4) 10} Qc7 {-0.82/7 3} 27. Qe1 {(Le1) 2} Nh6 {-1.01/8 6} 28. Be2 {(Kg1) 3}
Ng4+ {-0.96/7 3} 29. Kg2 {1} Re8 {-0.98/8 2} 30. N1h2 {(Kg1) 1} Nh6 {-0.99/10 3
} 31. Rd1 {(Lc1) 3} Nf5 {-1.00/8 8} 32. Nf1 {5} Bc6 {0} 33. Kh2 {(Lc1) 2} Nh6 {
2} 34. Kg2 {(Kg1) 2} Ng4 {3} 35. N3h2 {(Lc1) 2} Ngf2 {4} 36. Rdb1 {(Dxf2) 14}
Nd3 {2} 37. Qd1 {(Lxd3) 3} Nef2 {2} 38. Bxd3 {21} Nxd1 {0} 39. Rxd1 {(Lxg6) 1}
cxd3 {3} 40. Nf3 {2} Bb5 {0} 41. Kh2 {(Lc1) 2} a4 {2} 42. Kg2 {2} Qb6 {1} 43.
N1h2 {(Lc1) 1} Kg7 {3} 44. Rg1 {(Te1) 0} Rac8 {2} 45. Kh1 {(Le1) 0} f5 {2} 46.
Rgc1 {(Sg5) 8} Re7 {3} 47. Kg2 {(Tg1) 0} Rf7 {2} 48. Kh3 {(Se5) 0} Qd8 {2} 49.
Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Re7 {3} 50. Kh3 {(Se5) 0} Ra7 {4} 51. Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Qf6 {3} 52.
Kh3 {(Se5) 0} Rb7 {2} 53. Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Kh6 {2} 54. Kh3 {(Se5) 0} Qe7 {3} 55.
Kg2 {(Se5) 1} Qg7 {3} 56. Kh3 {(Se5) 0} Qf6 {4} 57. Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Ra7 {2} 58.
Kh3 {(Se5) 1} Kg7 {3} 59. Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Qf7 {3} 60. Kh3 {(Se1) 1} Qe7 {3} 61.
Kg2 {(Se5) 1} Qb7 {3} 62. Kh3 {(Se5) 1} Qb6 {3} 63. Kg2 {(Sg5) 0} Rd7 {3} 64.
Kh3 {(Se5) 0} Rf7 {3} 65. Kg2 {(Tg1) 0} Rf6 {3} 66. Kh3 {(Te1) 1} Bb8 {2} 67.
Kg2 {(Tg1) 1} Qb7 {3} 68. Ng5 {(Se5) 1} Bd6 {2} 69. Nhf3 {(Tab1) 1} Qb6 {2} 70.
Kh3 {(Sh3) 1} Be7 {4} 71. Kg2 {(Le1) 1} Rcf8 {2} 72. Kf2 {(Tab1) 3} Bd6 {2} 73.
Kg2 {(Th1) 1} Qb7 {2} 74. Kf2 {(Tg1) 1} Rd8 {2} 75. Kg2 {(Th1) 1} Rc8 {6} 76.
Kf2 {(Se5) 1} Qb6 {1} 77. Kg2 {(Th1) 1} Bb8 {5} 78. Kh2 {(Se5) 0} Rff8 {2} 79.
Kg2 {(Se5) 1} Rfd8 {1} 80. Kh2 {(Th1) 0} Rd7 {2} 81. Kg2 {1} Re7 {1} 82. Kh2 {
(Te1) 0} Bd6 {2} 83. Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Bc4 {5} 84. Kh2 {(Se5) 1} Ree8 {2} 85. Kg2 {
(Se5) 1} Bb5 {3} 86. Kh2 {(Se5) 1} Rc4 {2} 87. Kg2 {(Se5) 0} Qb7 {4} 88. Kh2 {
(Se5) 0} Qa7 {4} 89. Kg2 {(Sh3) 0} Qb6 {3} 90. Kh2 {(Se5) 0} Rc7 {1} 91. Kg2 {
(Se5) 0} Be7 {1} 92. Kh2 {(Se5) 1} Ba6 {2} 93. Kh3 {(Kg2) 1} Qd6 {4} 94. Kh2 {
(Kg2) 1} Bxg5 {3} 95. hxg5 {(Sxg5) 2} Rcc8 {2} 96. Kh3 {(Kh1) 3} Red8 {3} 97.
Kh4 {(Kg2) 1} Rc7 {2} 98. Ne5 {(Th1) 9} Bb5 {3} 99. Rab1 {(Td1) 25} Rh8 {3}
100. Ra1 {(Td1) 1} Rcc8 {2} 101. Rab1 {(Kh3) 1} Rh7 {2} 102. Ra1 {(Le1) 1} Qb6
{2} 103. Rab1 {(Th1) 1} Qb7 {2} 104. Ra1 {(Le1) 1} Qa6 {2} 105. Rab1 {(Kh3) 1}
Rhh8 {2} 106. Rd1 {(Le1) 1} Rhf8 {2} 107. Rbc1 {(Le1) 1} Ra8 {2} 108. Rb1 {
(Le1) 1} Bc4 {1} 109. Ra1 {(Le1) 1} Kh7 {2} 110. Rab1 {(Sd7) 1} Rac8 {1} 111.
Ra1 {(Sd7) 1} Rg8 {3} 112. Rdb1 {(Sd7) 1} Kh8 {2} 113. Rd1 {(Kh3) 1} Ra8 {3}
114. Rdb1 {(Le1) 1} Qa5 {2} 115. Rc1 {(Td1) 2} Kg7 {1} 116. Rab1 {(Td1) 2} Rh8
{2} 117. Ra1 {(Tg1) 1} Bb5 {2} 118. Rab1 {(Kh3) 1} Ra7 {2} 119. Ra1 {(Td1) 1}
Qa6 {2} 120. Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Kh7 {2} 121. Ra1 {(Kh3) 2} Rb7 {2} 122. Rab1 {
(Kh3) 1} Rc8 {2} 123. Ra1 {1} Bc4 {0} 124. Rab1 {(Le1) 2} Rb5 {3} 125. Ra1 {
(Sd7) 1} Kg7 {2} 126. Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Qb7 {3} 127. Ra1 {(Th1) 1} Rb6 {2} 128.
Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Qa6 {3} 129. Ra1 {(Th1) 1} Rb7 {1} 130. Rab1 {(Le1) 1} Qa5 {3}
131. Ra1 {(Td1) 1} Qb5 {2} 132. Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Rb6 {2} 133. Ra1 {(Td1) 1} Qa6 {
2} 134. Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Ra8 {2} 135. Ra1 {(Td1) 1} Bb5 {1} 136. Rab1 {(Td1) 1}
Rc8 {1} 137. Ra1 {(Td1) 2} Rb7 {3} 138. Rab1 {(Th1) 0} Rh8 {2} 139. Ra1 {
(Le1) 2} Re7 {2} 140. Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Qb7 {3} 141. Ra1 {(Th1) 1} Qb6 {2} 142.
Rab1 {(Td1) 1} Rc7 {2} 143. Ra1 {(Le1) 1} Qa7 {2} 144. Rab1 {(Th1) 1} Rxc3 {3}
145. Rxc3 {9} Rb8 {0} 146. Rbc1 {23} Rb7 {0} 147. Nf3 {(Tc8) 8} Bc4 {2} 148.
Ne5 {4} Qb6 {0} 149. Nf3 {(Sxc4) 2} Qb5 {2} 150. Ne5 {3} Re7 {0} 151. Ra1 {
(Kh3) 3} Kh7 {2} 152. Rac1 {2} Qa6 {1} 153. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qb6 {2} 154. Rac1 {1}
Kg7 {0} 155. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qb5 {2} 156. Rac1 {1} Qa6 {0} 157. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Re8
{2} 158. Rac1 {1} Kh7 {4} 159. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qb5 {4} 160. Rac1 {1} Kg7 {0} 161.
Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Rb8 {3} 162. Rac1 {1} Rf8 {1} 163. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Ra8 {4} 164.
Rac1 {1} Ra7 {1} 165. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kh7 {3} 166. Rac1 {1} Re7 {1} 167. Ra1 {
(Kh3) 1} Qb7 {3} 168. Rac1 {1} Qb6 {1} 169. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Bb5 {2} 170. Rac1 {1}
Ra7 {0} 171. Rc5 {(Kh3) 22} Rb7 {3} 172. R5c3 {(Lb4) 24} Rg7 {5} 173. Rc5 {
(Kh3) 4} Ra7 {4} 174. R5c3 {(Lb4) 1} Bc4 {2} 175. Ra1 {(Kh3) 4} Qd6 {2} 176.
Rac1 {1} Kg7 {0} 177. Ra1 {(Kh3) 2} Qf8 {2} 178. Rcc1 {(Sxd3) 30} Qe8 {3} 179.
Rc3 {1} Ba6 {1} 180. Rac1 {2} Re7 {1} 181. Rc5 {(Kh3) 4} Kh7 {3} 182. R5c3 {
(T1c3) 2} Bc4 {2} 183. Ra1 {(Kh3) 2} Kg7 {2} 184. Rac1 {1} Qa8 {1} 185. Ra1 {
(Th1) 1} Kh7 {5} 186. Rac1 {1} Qb7 {1} 187. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Ba6 {2} 188. Rac1 {6}
Bb5 {0} 189. Rc5 {(Kh3) 4} Bc4 {3} 190. Rc3 {(Lb4) 39} Qa8 {2} 191. Rc1 {3} Rb7
{1} 192. Rc3 {(Lb4) 3} Qa7 {3} 193. Rc1 {(Tc6) 1} Rc7 {2} 194. Rxc7+ {(Ta5) 16}
Qxc7 {1} 195. Nf3 {(Sxd3) 19} Qd6 {2} 196. Ra1 {(Se5) 36} Kg7 {2} 197. Ne5 {
(Tc1) 1} Qe7 {3} 198. Nf3 {(Tc1) 1} Bb5 {2} 199. Rc1 {2} Qa7 {1} 200. Rc3 {
(Se5) 1} Bc4 {2} 201. Ne5 {1} Qa6 {1} 202. Rc1 {1} Qb7 {0} 203. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1}
Bb5 {2} 204. Rc1 {1} Qa7 {1} 205. Rc3 {(Kh3) 1} Bc4 {3} 206. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Qa6
{4} 207. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qd6 {2} 208. Nf3 {(Tc1) 3} Qb8 {3} 209. Ne5 {1} Qd8 {1}
210. Nf3 {(Tc1) 1} Kh7 {3} 211. Ne5 {1} Bb5 {1} 212. Rc1 {2} Kg7 {1} 213. Nf3 {
(Kh3) 1} Qb6 {3} 214. Ne5 {4} Bc4 {0} 215. Nf3 {(Kh3) 2} Qb5 {2} 216. Ne5 {2}
Kh7 {0} 217. Nf3 {(Kh3) 2} Qd7 {2} 218. Ne5 {1} Qb7 {1} 219. Nf3 {(Kh3) 1} Kg7
{2} 220. Ne5 {1} Qb5 {1} 221. Nf3 {(Kh3) 2} Qc6 {2} 222. Ne5 {(Kh3) 3} Qe8 {4}
223. Nf3 {(Kh3) 1} Kh7 {2} 224. Ne5 {1} Qa8 {5} 225. Nf3 {(Kh3) 1} Qd8 {2} 226.
Ne5 {1} Qd6 {0} 227. Ra1 {(Kh3) 2} Qe7 {2} 228. Nf3 {(Tc1) 2} Kg7 {2} 229. Ne5
{(Tc1) 1} Qe8 {3} 230. Nf3 {(Tc1) 1} Ba6 {2} 231. Rc1 {(Se5) 2} Kg8 {5} 232.
Ne5 {(Tc7) 1} Bc4 {3} 233. Ra1 {(Kh3) 4} Kh8 {2} 234. Rc1 {1} Kh7 {1} 235. Ra1
{(Kh3) 1} Qb5 {4} 236. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Qb6 {4} 237. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qa7 {4} 238.
Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Qe7 {2} 239. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qc7 {2} 240. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Qb8 {2}
241. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kg7 {2} 242. Rc1 {1} Qg8 {0} 243. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qf8 {2} 244.
Nf3 {(Tc1) 3} e5 {1} 245. Nxe5 {(dxe5) 1} Kh7 {2} 246. Bb4 {(Tc1) 4} Qc8 {3}
247. Rc1 {4} Qb7 {0} 248. Bd2 {(Kh3) 1} Qa7 {2} 249. Ra1 {(Kh3) 4} Qb6 {2} 250.
Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Qd8 {2} 251. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qg8 {3} 252. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Kh8 {2}
253. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qe6 {2} 254. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Kg7 {2} 255. Ra1 {(Lb4) 1} Kf8 {2
} 256. Rc1 {2} Ke7 {0} 257. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kd8 {2} 258. Rc1 {(Td1) 1} Kc7 {2}
259. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qg8 {2} 260. Rc1 {1} Qe6 {0} 261. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qe8 {2} 262.
Rc1 {1} Kb6 {2} 263. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Ka7 {5} 264. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Ka6 {2} 265. Ra1
{(Kh3) 1} Qe6 {3} 266. Rc1 {1} Kb5 {0} 267. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Qe8 {4} 268. Rc1 {1}
Kb6 {2} 269. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kb7 {2} 270. Rc1 {1} Qe6 {0} 271. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Ka8
{2} 272. Rc1 {(Kh3) 1} Ka7 {2} 273. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kb6 {2} 274. Rc1 {2} Kb7 {2}
275. Ra1 {(Kh3) 1} Kc8 {4} 276. Rc1 {1} Kb7 1/2-1/2

I seem to recall some 1800-1900 Swedish psychologist who could beat fritz most times. His plan was something like castle queenside,make black play h6, then put a knight on g5 fritz would capture the knight and because the resulting attack was outside the computers horizon fritz would happily munch up the knight not realising that it had just doomed its king.


Not the link I was looking for, but might be a little help.
http://www.chessbase.com/Events/events.asp?pid=120

Originally posted by Sicilian Smaug
Some people may remember my public argument with this player from Roxy Music :User 227329

I picked his game from open invites Game 2009444 and was enjoying the game and had an obvously superior position.

White had played 11. Ng3, and I observed that the e4 pawn was weak - my knight on f3 and Bishop on b7 were attacking it so I went ...[text shortened]... My opponent in this game has not moved since, obviously too busy with Roxy Music concerts.

Yes, a reasonably good player is very likely to match up with an engine near the beginning of the game, considering it is still the opening.