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  1. Standard member atticus2
    Frustrate the Bad
    22 Jan '13 14:21 / 1 edit
    Here's a little problem to test your wits at chess. it's not that hard. But it is appealing. Engine-users can take a running jump; and players 2100+ can keep quiet.

    I've just finished a game: the final position is given below. White (that's me) has just played Rxg7, and threatens an unstoppable mate in one with Rh7++. So Black resigned.

    But how might Black, to move, have done rather better? 🙂

  2. 22 Jan '13 14:28
    Very nice position , almost "study" like.
    I won't betray the solution.
  3. 22 Jan '13 14:28
    Black can force a stalemate, checking with his rooks, forcing white to take them off.

    Rd1+, followed by Ka2 and Ra1+, and then again with the second rook.
  4. 22 Jan '13 14:35
    Nice!
  5. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    22 Jan '13 14:42 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by atticus2
    Here's a little problem to test your wits at chess. it's not that hard. But it is appealing. Engine-users can take a running jump; and players 2100+ can keep quiet.

    I've just finished a game: the final position is given below. White (that's me) has just played Rxg7, and threatens an unstoppable mate in one with Rh7++. So Black resigned.

    But how ...[text shortened]... , have done rather better? 🙂

    [fen]2r4k/4R1R1/7N/p7/Pp1r4/1P6/1P3PPP/1K6 b - - 2 34[/fen]
    The draw by stalemate is easy to overlook in a game. But once you give the clue that black could have played better, it becomes much easier to see.

    P.S. Perhaps you could have just said what should black do? Many might then say, resign.
  6. Subscriber Ragwortonline
    Ex Duris Gloria
    22 Jan '13 15:16
  7. Standard member atticus2
    Frustrate the Bad
    22 Jan '13 15:53
    OK. A pretty double Rook sac on a1 saves the game for Black (as does Ragwort's less elegant method). That's the easy part. Now the tougher test.

    The position below is immediately before I played Rxg7. Since we now know that, with best play, this throws away the win, what should White do?

    How should White play in order to keep the win?

  8. 22 Jan '13 16:20
    My instinct is to play Nf5, as this removes some of the King trapping (and therefore the stalemate through saccing risk), while not really weakening white's position too much, or at least not enough that the material advantage couldn't be used in the endgame. Not a very sexy move though, which makes me think there's something better in there
  9. 22 Jan '13 16:25 / 1 edit
    Scatch that, this isn't going to an end game at all. It has to be Nf5 because of the threat of Rd1+ and Rc1.
    White's reply after Rd1+ Ka2, Rc1 leaves Re8+ Kh7, Rg7#

    *Edit: Black can play Rg4 or similar to keep it going and not walk into the mate in 2, but it keeps the pressure on the g pawn, so it will fall, and then white is into a won end game
  10. 22 Jan '13 19:16
    Ka2
  11. 22 Jan '13 19:50
    🙂

    "What should White do?"



    (Good Thread Atticus.) 😉
  12. 22 Jan '13 20:32
    Originally posted by atticus2
    OK. A pretty double Rook sac on a1 saves the game for Black (as does Ragwort's less elegant method). That's the easy part. Now the tougher test.

    The position below is immediately before I played Rxg7. Since we now know that, with best play, this throws away the win, what should White do?

    How should White play in order to keep the win?

    [fen]2r4k/4RRp1/7N/p7/Pp1r4/1P6/1P3PPP/1K6 b - - 2 34[/fen]
    Rd7?
  13. Standard member black beetle
    Black Beastie
    22 Jan '13 21:16
    Originally posted by atticus2
    Here's a little problem to test your wits at chess. it's not that hard. But it is appealing. Engine-users can take a running jump; and players 2100+ can keep quiet.

    I've just finished a game: the final position is given below. White (that's me) has just played Rxg7, and threatens an unstoppable mate in one with Rh7++. So Black resigned.

    But how ...[text shortened]... , have done rather better? 🙂

    [fen]2r4k/4R1R1/7N/p7/Pp1r4/1P6/1P3PPP/1K6 b - - 2 34[/fen]
    😵
  14. Standard member atticus2
    Frustrate the Bad
    24 Jan '13 13:07
    OK. Sorry for the delay in responding; been busy. Apologies too if what follows contains errors - I haven't run the position through an engine.

    Of the solutions proposed, Morgski's looks the best. In my initial & quick assessment of the position, I'd assumed 1 Nf5 failed! For example:

    1 Nf5 Rd1+; 2 Ka2 Rcc1 and it's White who gets mated! But clearly I'd missed Morgski's idea: 3 Re8+ Kh7; 4 Rxg7 mate because I'd overlooked that the N controls h6.

    So, 1 Nf5 Rg4 and, aside from GP34's amusing example on the theme, Morgski is correct to say that, with modest care, White will win in the end.

    This provides the general point. Notwithstanding Black's tricks, White has such a weight of advantage that many moves bring home the win - except Rxg7 😀 So 1 Rd7 is fine; and 1 Ka2 is OK as well. White can jettison his N and retain a big advantage.

    My personal choice, after I'd realised my good fortune, was to play the dull but effective 1 Re1 (because I'd missed Morgski's idea, as I've mentioned).

    One final detail to round things off. In the diagram at the start of the thread, I've rolled the finishing position of the actual game back a move for aesthetic reasons. In fact, my opponent played 1...Rd1+; 2 Ka2, and I was about to award him a huge round of applause for the anticipated 2...Ra1+ - when he resigned 🙂 A pity!
  15. 24 Jan '13 13:30
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    🙂

    "What should White do?"

    [pgn]
    [FEN "2r4k/4RRp1/7N/p7/Pp1r4/1P6/1P3PPP/1K6 w - - 0 1"]
    1. Nf5 Rg4 2. Rxg7 Rxg7 3. Rxg7 Rc1+ 4. Ka2 Ra1+ 5. Kxa1[/pgn]

    (Good Thread Atticus.) 😉
    That is a vexing line 😉
    What about this:



    Won endgame...