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  1. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    17 Dec '07 21:40 / 3 edits
    Every now and then a game comes along that has massive theoretical significance. 12 months ago I had one such game, a King and 2 Knights vs a King and Pawn that was a win (in about 47 moves I believe) for the 2 Knights but that time I failed and I had to accept a draw in the end.

    Now another game has come along but first can I implore you all to watch it but do not comment as it is still in progress. By all means, of course comment on the general principles in other examples which I will be going into much further but nothing please on the position in my game until it is over (not even a hint of anything). I am quoting the game because the position can be educational and I think that is a worthwhile objective.

    That game is Game 4244304. At 1st sight some of you may feel black is hopelessly lost and that he should resign but you would be wrong. The game is in fact a draw and I hope to prove it eventually by doing exactly that. I got myself into a lot of trouble in this game going from 2 pawns up to 2 pawns down without any obviously bad moves but for me the key moves were those leading up to move 39. ... Ne3+. I hoped for 40. BXN intending 40. ... RXB, 41. Nd4 .. BXN, 42. KXB which took us into a (what I believed to be a drawn after the fall of my a pawn) R vs R & 2P ending.

    I did a lot of research before getting into this position and this game is still taking up 50% of the time I am spending on all games because I believe it can be drawn.

    The method is shown in this interesting example of a very similar ending



    The above position is from the game Bondarevsky vs Keres, 1939 and it continues

    1... Rg2

    (1... Rf2+ 2. Kg5 Rg2+ (the only move) 3. Kf6 Rf2 (again, the only move) 4. Re8 Ra2 (4... Rb2 also draws) 5. Re3 Ra1(5... Rb2 also draws) 6. Rb3 Ra2 (Other moves along the 1st rank also draw) 7. Kf7 (Rook moves will clearly get white no where) Ra7+ 8. Kf6 Ra2

    (8... Ra6+ would lose after 9. Kg5 Ra2 10. Rb7+ (Alternatives draw) Kg8 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Re7 (not 12. f6?? which gives the draw back after Rg2+ 13. Kf5 Rf2+ 14. Ke5 Re2+ 15. Kd6 Rd2+ 16. Ke7 Rd7+!! the only move 17. Ke6 Rd6+ and the Rook can never be taken because of the stalemate) 12... Rg2+ 13. Kf6 Rf2 14. Kg6 Rg2+ 15. Kf7 Ra2 16. f6 Kh7 17. Kf8+ Kxh6 18. f7 Kh7 19. Re1 Ra8+ 20. Ke7 Ra7+ 21. Kf6 Ra6+ 22. Re6 Ra8 23. Rd6 Rb8 24. Rd1 Rb6+ 25. Ke7 Rb7+ 26. Ke8 Rb8+ 27. Rd8 Rxd8+ 28. Kxd8 Kg7 29. Ke8 and it is all over)

    9. Rc3 Rb2 10. Rc6 Ra2 11. Kf7 Ra7+ 12. Ke6 Rb7 13. f6 Kxh6 14. f7 Kg7 15. Ra6 Rxf7=)

    2. Ke5 Ra2
    3. Kd6 Ra5
    4. f6 Kxh6


    (4... Kg6 also draws 5. Re8 Ra6+ 6. Ke7 Rxf6 7. Rg8+ Kh7 8. Rg7+ Kh8 9. Kxf6 =)

    5. f7+ Kg7
    6. Re7 Rb5
    7. Kc6 Ra5
    8. Kb6 Rf5
    9. Kc6 Rxf7 =


    By all means feel free to comment on this example and the principles involved (but not my game). There are dozens of other examples in my Rook Endings book by Keres as well as other books I have. RP & BP are the 2 pawns where the inferior side has the best drawing chances especially if his King and Rook are well placed, which mine are.
  2. 17 Dec '07 21:47
    I read through it, and while it certainly seems interesting, it just seems extremely impractical to spend the time learning it- correspondence is different of course, but for OTB, there is just too much important stuff to learn- The chances of this kind of ending coming up are probably quite slim.
  3. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    17 Dec '07 21:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by chesskid001
    I read through it, and while it certainly seems interesting, it just seems extremely impractical to spend the time learning it- correspondence is different of course, but for OTB, there is just too much important stuff to learn- The chances of this kind of ending coming up are probably quite slim.
    Not so, R & P endings are the most common endings and knowing how to draw (or win) them can convert a lot of points.

    Also the principles apply to other types of endings.
  4. 17 Dec '07 22:29 / 1 edit
    what would happen after 3.Kf6? the key is surely to sac the h pawn and stop the black king from getting to the queening square?
  5. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    17 Dec '07 22:56 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by jonrothwell
    what would happen after 3.Kf6? the key is surely to sac the h pawn and stop the black king from getting to the queening square?
    You are correct that (if a win exists) the winning method is to sacrifice the h pawn and convert the ending to a won R & BP vs R but in this position the R & BP ending is not a won position and such position cannot be forced.

    3. Kf6 gives this position



    so now 3. ... KXh7;
    4. Kf7+ ... Kh7 (the only move to save the game);
    5. f6 ... Ra8 (the crutial and only move to save the game). In this sort of ending the inferior sides king must generally not allow itself to be forced back to the 8th rank as this will often lose, so it is the R that needs to cover these squares and it does it very effectively from a distance.;
    6. Rd6 ... Ra7;
    7. Ke8 ... Kg8 (essential);
    8. Rd7 ... RXR;
    9. KXR ... Kf7=.
  6. 17 Dec '07 23:04
    your much stronger than me so i will take your word for it! I'm not entirely convinced though, I still think white should win.

    Good luck in your game though. Just be glad you're not Shirov with his endgame that was a win in 250 moves!
  7. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    17 Dec '07 23:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by jonrothwell
    your much stronger than me so i will take your word for it! I'm not entirely convinced though, I still think white should win.

    Good luck in your game though. Just be glad you're not Shirov with his endgame that was a win in 250 moves!
    Don't mention anything (not even these type of thoughts) about my game in progress but instead look at the position I have given from the Keres game which is not dissimilar to mine and ask as many questions about that as you like. I assure you in that game the stronger side cannot win.
  8. 17 Dec '07 23:16
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    Not so, R & P endings are the most common endings and knowing how to draw (or win) them can convert a lot of points.

    Also the principles apply to other types of endings.
    very true, it also helps a great deal that if in an inferior ending and given the chance you could try to achieve this position ( f and h pawns)
    And feeling very comfortable that you can draw it.
    Silman calls this " Two pawns down and loving it! " in his excellent
    Complete endgame course.
  9. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    17 Dec '07 23:26
    Originally posted by sannevssr
    very true, it also helps a great deal that if in an inferior ending and given the chance you could try to achieve this position ( f and h pawns)
    And feeling very comfortable that you can draw it.
    Silman calls this " Two pawns down and loving it! " in his excellent
    Complete endgame course.
    I haven't read Silman but I have a couple of end game books by Keres and Averbach which are pretty good and give me a lot of information on how to draw this particular ending. The more I research it the more comfortable I am becoming that my game is an "easy" draw.

    Its amazing that you can be 2Ps down in a Rook ending and the stronger side not have the easy win.
  10. 17 Dec '07 23:27
    I was refering to the keres game, sorry.

    as i said you may well be right ( I like to analyse and see for my self!)

    The keres game is a very interesting position though ( for those of us that find the endgame a mystery!) Would it be different if the white rook was on f8?
  11. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    17 Dec '07 23:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by jonrothwell
    I was refering to the keres game, sorry.

    as i said you may well be right ( I like to analyse and see for my self!)

    The keres game is a very interesting position though ( for those of us that find the endgame a mystery!) Would it be different if the white rook was on f8?
    With the Rook on f8 it is still a draw.

    This would be the position



    With black to move the simplist method is
    1. ... KXh6;

    but even if white is to move the position I believe to be drawn.
  12. 17 Dec '07 23:40 / 1 edit
    Thanks, I'll have to dig out my copy of basic chess endings and have a proper look. (Not to question you but merely to entertain and educate myself.)

    cheers.

    Note - having just looked, yes the position in the keres game is a draw.
  13. Standard member wittywonkaonline
    Chocolate Expert
    18 Dec '07 03:19
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    At 1st sight some of you may feel black is hopelessly lost and that he should resign but you would be wrong. The game is in fact a draw and I hope to prove it eventually by doing exactly that. I got myself into a lot of trouble in this game going from 2 pawns up to 2 pawns down...the inferior side has the best drawing chances especially if his King and Rook are well placed, which mine are.
    Out of curiousity, can King + Rook + 2 connected pawns vs. King + Rook win?
  14. Standard member Yuga
    Renaissance
    18 Dec '07 04:54 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Out of curiousity, can King + Rook + 2 connected pawns vs. King + Rook win?
    Yes. Is there a position as such that doesn't win?

    Kasparov - Short, 1993, 9th match game.



    Position after 46. e4??

    "The draw is elementary in the lines that follow
    46...Rc5 47. a5 (or 47. Ra3 Rc4 48. a5 Re4 49. a6 Rf4 50. Ke3 Rf8 etc.) 47...Rc3 48. Ke2 Ke4 49. a6 Rc8." - Kasparov

    (From New in Chess: 7.93 page 29, according to offramp of chessgames.com 3/16/05)

    Here is a link to the game:
    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070681
  15. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    18 Dec '07 09:04
    Originally posted by Yuga
    Yes. Is there a position as such that doesn't win?
    An interesting more recent example you gave - thanks.

    In this position with black to move the connected pawns only draw.



    White has pushed the pawns too quickly and should have improved his King position before doing this.

    1. ... Kb6 draws after
    2. Kb4 .. Rg6;
    3. Rf7 .. Rg4;
    4. Kb3 .. KXb5 =