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  1. Standard member hempster
    she'll be right mate
    21 Dec '11 06:37
    not a pretty game but an enjoyable one..


    could i have closed it out sooner(i was black)
  2. Standard member hempster
    she'll be right mate
    21 Dec '11 06:38
    well it worked wasn't sure it would
  3. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    21 Dec '11 08:07
    Originally posted by hempster
    not a pretty game but an enjoyable one..[pgn]1. e4 e5 2. Ng1f3 Bf8d6 3. Bf1c4 Ng8f6 4. Nf3g5 O-O 5. d3 h6 6. Ng5xf7 Rf8xf7 7. c3 b5 8. Bc4xb5 a6 9. Bb5c4 Bd6c5 10. Qd1b3 d5 11. exd5 Qd8d6 12. O-O Nb8d7 13. g3 Ra8b8 14. Qb3c2 Nf6g4 15. b4 Bc5a7 16. a4 Bc8b7 17. Nb1d2 Qd6f8 18. Bc4a2 Rf7xf2 19. d4 exd4 20. Ba2b1 Nd7f6 21. Qc2g6 dxc3 22. Bb1a2 Rf2xh2 23. Rf1f2 ...[text shortened]... d4e4 Qa3e3 34. Ke4f5 Rb8f8 35. Kf5g6 0-1[/pgn]

    could i have closed it out sooner(i was black)
    2..Be6 is a bad move on principle, it blocks the white bishop in, blocks the d-pawn from advancing to claim the center. Two moves later you moved the Be6 to c5....well why not do that straight away? I've only ever seen a master play such a move once, and that player was Tal (who was World champion at the time). As a general rule, neither bishop should ever be placed in front of a central pawn. In ten years of playing i have never seen a position where this move is correct. The only exception i can think of is in the English opening, where white places his black bishop on e3, but this only happens when the white bishop is fianchettoed on g2 and white has already castled.
  4. Standard member hempster
    she'll be right mate
    21 Dec '11 08:23
    hmmm ...its a move i do frequently..dont know why but it seems to work for me..but thanks i will look at making the full move in future
  5. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    22 Dec '11 07:42
    Originally posted by hempster
    hmmm ...its a move i do frequently..dont know why but it seems to work for me..but thanks i will look at making the full move in future
    http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/opening-database.html

    This is a chess opening database. The rules allow you to use one in your games here. If you use it to check the move you want to play, i think you'll find that this sort of bishop move almost never appears. I'd go as far as to say that you can be pretty confident that it is always wrong.
  6. 22 Dec '11 13:21 / 1 edit

    Sveshnikov and Gurevich played this line as Black. But, of course, it's an exception. In my opinion, Bd6 in Open Game is objectively bad.
  7. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    22 Dec '11 16:57
    Originally posted by Caesius
    [pgn]1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 {With 0-0, Rfe8, Bf8 and finally d5 in mind, if allowed. Also, if Bxc6, then dxc6 and Bishop comes into play easily.} [/pgn]
    Sveshnikov and Gurevich played this line as Black. But, of course, it's an exception. In my opinion, Bd6 in Open Game is objectively bad.
    "With 0-0, Rfe8, Bf8 and finally d5 in mind, if allowed. Also, if Bxc6, then dxc6 and Bishop comes into play easily."

    All the while white is free to take advantage of blacks complete lack of control over c4-c5-d5-e4 and e5. Who won the game? I'd be very surprised if black won, white would have to blunder quite badly i feel. Using this sort of thing as a psychological tactic is one thing, perhaps white would expect some sort of computer generted super line and stear the game to a draw out of fear...i can't see white realistically getting beaten though...
  8. Subscriber Ragwortonline
    Ex Duris Gloria
    22 Dec '11 23:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb
    2..Bd6 is a bad move on principle.....
    I'm not sure about this. The classical dragon variation of the Sicilian defence featured Be6
    played infront of the e pawn, as do lines of the fianchetto Grunfeld and the Queen's Gambit Accepted some of which have been main lines at master level for many years.

    A case in point is the following game which was published in the press as it features a nice central attack with material offered, and is of short duration. The loser is around 192 ECF and the winner 206 ECF. Bd6 is played blocking the d pawn. I think strong players learn how to offer a temporary positional disadvantage as well as material as part of the range of risks they are prepared to take when they try to win. I lifted the pgn from the FIDE rating website which now displays some games.

  9. 23 Dec '11 02:26 / 1 edit
    Whoa....Back track a bit. The lad was asking if he had a quicker win.

    There are loads of quicker mates Hempster.
    Here is one just using the minor pieces (Bishops and Knights.)



    The lads were talking about 2...Bd6 in this position.


    Not 4...Bd6 in the Larsen Opening or any other opening or ...Be6 in the Dragon.
    (How did this get onto Be6 in the Dragon?).

    In which case the statement:

    "In my opinion, Bd6 in Open Games is objectively bad." Holds a lot water.

    Hempster.


    There are at least 5 better moves than 2..Bd6 in this position.

    2...Nc6 as you played in Game 8780369
    2...d6
    2...f5
    2...d5
    2...Nf6

    Here is a wonderful wee game played on here where White exploits the move
    2..Bd6 in a very instructive manner.

    iznogood - Cappy02067 RHP 2010

  10. Standard member hempster
    she'll be right mate
    23 Dec '11 06:58
    thanks everyone yes it looks like i could do with a bit more study..thanks to greenpawn34 who gave me the moves that would have finished it earlier.
    i am learning a bit more everyday.

    thanks for all the replies
  11. 23 Dec '11 09:32
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb
    "With 0-0, Rfe8, Bf8 and finally d5 in mind, if allowed. Also, if Bxc6, then dxc6 and Bishop comes into play easily."

    All the while white is free to take advantage of blacks complete lack of control over c4-c5-d5-e4 and e5. Who won the game? I'd be very surprised if black won, white would have to blunder quite badly i feel. Using this sort of thing as ...[text shortened]... ar the game to a draw out of fear...i can't see white realistically getting beaten though...


    Example from 2006. Both players are not amateurs. Certainly playable position for Black after move 7, I think.
  12. Standard member hempster
    she'll be right mate
    24 Dec '11 02:06
    well that blows that idea out of the water..just did a search for a chess club in my area (thought i might benefit form some live games with people and learn the basics)
    well it seems we have none ,so it looks like i will just have to annoy you good people more often.

    and a Merry Christmas to all hope you have a good one.
  13. 26 Dec '11 04:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34


    Here is a wonderful wee game played on here where White exploits the move
    2..Bd6 in a very instructive manner.

    iznogood - Cappy02067 RHP 2010

    [pgn]
    [Event "Open invite"]
    [Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
    [Date "2008.04.10"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "iznogood"]
    [Black "Cappy02067"]
    [Result "1-0"]
    [WhiteElo "1838"]
    [BlackElo "1337"]
    [EndDate ive game brought to you not by a GM or IM but by a normal Joe.}[/pgn][/b]
    Ha ha wow someone actually studied one of my games. Happy it made you learn something. Hit me up if you ever want some explanation for a move or idea I had.


    As for your analysis its pretty much my train of toughts during that game. After Bd6 white only needs to develop and prepare to charge the king side. Black is in trouble because he has a badly placed piece (protecting the e5 pawn does not compansate at all for the drawbacks) and lost a tempo getting in that position and will waste another one fixing it.

    Recognising what will be blacks weaknesses (like that f5 square you pointed out) is key to winning here. All that being said this opponent made big mistakes and Bd6 alone is not a garanteed 100% win for white.

    edit: just noticed the guy who posted my game is actually a 2000 player. So my comments are more for the original poster.
  14. 28 Dec '11 23:05
    Originally posted by Marinkatomb
    2..Be6 is a bad move on principle, it blocks the white bishop in, blocks the d-pawn from advancing to claim the center. Two moves later you moved the Be6 to c5....well why not do that straight away? I've only ever seen a master play such a move once, and that player was Tal (who was World champion at the time). As a general rule, neither bishop should ev ...[text shortened]... ut this only happens when the white bishop is fianchettoed on g2 and white has already castled.
    hate to think what you would make of this then
    1 b3 e5
    2. Bb2 Nc6
    3. e3 Nf6
    4. Bb5 Bd6!?
    5. Na3 Na5!?