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  1. 22 Jul '07 09:46
    I was going through an old game of mine on this site with Fritz and came across the following position:



    Here, Fritz recommends for black the 14 ...Qxg2

    Am I missing something here or is my computer blundering away a queen?
  2. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    22 Jul '07 09:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by amolv06
    I was going through an old game of mine on this site with Fritz and came across the following position:

    [fen]3rkb1r/1p3p1p/p3p1q1/2pp4/8/2N1P3/PPP2PPP/1R1Q1RK1 b k - 0 14[/fen]

    Here, Fritz recommends for black the 14 ...Qxg2

    Am I missing something here or is my computer blundering away a queen?
    14....Qxg2?? is absolute nonsense.
  3. Standard member MetBierOp
    Dutch
    22 Jul '07 10:10
    Originally posted by amolv06
    I was going through an old game of mine on this site with Fritz and came across the following position:

    [fen]3rkb1r/1p3p1p/p3p1q1/2pp4/8/2N1P3/PPP2PPP/1R1Q1RK1 b k - 0 14[/fen]

    Here, Fritz recommends for black the 14 ...Qxg2

    Am I missing something here or is my computer blundering away a queen?
    Do you have a legal version of Fritz? If no, There's your problem. If yes, sue them!
  4. 22 Jul '07 11:16
    I bought if off of Amazon, so I assume it's legal.

    Anyway, thanks. Doubt I'm going to sue them, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
  5. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    22 Jul '07 11:31
    Originally posted by amolv06
    I was going through an old game of mine on this site with Fritz and came across the following position:

    [fen]3rkb1r/1p3p1p/p3p1q1/2pp4/8/2N1P3/PPP2PPP/1R1Q1RK1 b k - 0 14[/fen]

    Here, Fritz recommends for black the 14 ...Qxg2

    Am I missing something here or is my computer blundering away a queen?
    maybe you set up the position wrong? at least my fritz doesn't suggest Qxg2 at any point...



    Analysis by Fritz 9:

    1. µ (-1.01): 1...Rg8 2.g3 Bd6 3.Re1 b5 4.Ne2 Kf8 5.Nf4 Qf5 6.Qd2 Kg7
    2. ³ (-0.66): 1...Bd6 2.f4 Kd7 3.Qe2 f5 4.a3 Kc8 5.b4 c4 6.b5 a5 7.b6 Bxa3 8.Nb5
    3. ³ (-0.65): 1...Rd7 2.f4 Rg8 3.Rf2 f5 4.Qd2 Bd6 5.Na4 Kf7 6.Nb6 Rdd8
    4. ³ (-0.58): 1...h5 2.Ne2 h4 3.h3 Bd6 4.Nf4 Bxf4 5.exf4 Kf8 6.Kh1 Rg8 7.Rg1 b5 8.Qe2 Qf5
    5. ³ (-0.58): 1...b5 2.f4 b4 3.Ne2 Bg7 4.f5 Qg5 5.Rf3 e5 6.Rg3 Qh6 7.e4 dxe4
    6. ³ (-0.46): 1...c4 2.f4 Rg8 3.Qd2 Bc5 4.Rf3 Kf8 5.f5 exf5 6.b4 Qh5
  6. 22 Jul '07 12:07
    Perhaps that's it. i don't know, though, the FEN was taken directly from fritz. I wish I had saved it now. I'll try and reproduce the results once I find the game it had analyzed.
  7. 22 Jul '07 12:10
    Impossible...you had to have set the position up incorrectly.
  8. 22 Jul '07 12:12
    Perhaps the black rook at h8 should be placed at g8. Then Qxg2 is perfectly natural.
  9. 22 Jul '07 12:24 / 1 edit
    Here's a link to the game:

    Game 3059259

    After 7 Be7 fritz suggests the following variation for black

    7 ...Nxe5 8.dxe5 Bxb5 9.exf6 gxf6 10. Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Nxb5 Rd8 12.Rb1 a6 13.Nc3 Qg6 14.0-0

    At this point the situation looks like this:



    After that Fritz finishes the variation with

    14....Qxg2+
  10. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    22 Jul '07 13:12
    Originally posted by amolv06
    Here's a link to the game:

    Game 3059259

    After 7 Be7 fritz suggests the following variation for black

    7 ...Nxe5 8.dxe5 Bxb5 9.exf6 gxf6 10. Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Nxb5 Rd8 12.Rb1 a6 13.Nc3 Qg6 14.0-0
    7.Be7 was not played in the game. 7...Be7 was, but then 7...Nxe5 would be time traveling.
  11. 22 Jul '07 13:27 / 1 edit
    Is it a horizon thing? I mean, if this is the last move Fritz have in its combination, then it is good because he black gets a pawn. (Qxc2 would be as good, also giving a pawn.) But if Fritz thought one ply further, (i.e. over the horizon) then he would realize that it was not good for obvious reasons. Somewhere Fritz stops thinking and that's at its horizon, a number of plies from the present position.

    Human thinking has no sharp horizon effect. We think as long we think tit is necessary, we don't stop 17 plies ahead. We see easily that the queen at g2 can be taken, but Fritz can't, because he is at the horizon.
  12. 22 Jul '07 13:33
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Is it a horizon thing? I mean, if this is the last move Fritz have in its combination, then it is good because he black gets a pawn. (Qxc2 would be as good, also giving a pawn.) But if Fritz thought one ply further, (i.e. over the horizon) then he would realize that it was not good for obvious reasons. Somewhere Fritz stops thinking and that's at its hori ...[text shortened]... see easily that the queen at g2 can be taken, but Fritz can't, because he is at the horizon.
    I think Fritz's "horizon" is a bit farther than to not see the loss of it's queen on the very next move.
  13. 22 Jul '07 13:55 / 4 edits
    But that's what "horizon" means. It doesn't look even a single move past that.

    I don't know for sure if that's the right explanation, but it makes sense.

    It shouldn't take more than a few extra seconds to let it run to the next ply past that. I'm using Crafty and it starts looking at white's 15th move within about 30 seconds (starting at black's 7th move).

    Anyway, the engine is designed to do a good job at evaluating the current move, not to perfectly predict moves 7-8 moves out.
  14. 22 Jul '07 14:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by incandenza
    But that's what "horizon" means. It doesn't look even a single move past that.

    I don't know for sure if that's the right explanation, but it makes sense.

    It shouldn't take more than a few extra seconds to let it run to the next ply past that. I'm using Crafty and it starts looking at white's 15th move within about 30 seconds (starting at black's 7th move).
    exactly....he didn't say how long the time was set at, we can assume it's more than enough to get past one ply...a single second would do it. "Horizon" is not a factor. The position must be set up wrong.
  15. 22 Jul '07 14:03
    Yeah, but he listed the variation where it *didn't* get to the next ply. I'm saying if he looks at the next one he should see the difference. It does take about 30 seconds on my machine, so if you're going through very quickly (maybe you set it to analyze the game at 10 seconds per move or something) then it might not show up.