Originally posted by Yugai think this is tough ... the computer programs are written by a human who analyses games and attempts to imbibe the critical pattens and positions ...
...Players that understand distinctions between engine and human styles can simply do a background check of games of potential opposition; then play clan games and avoid some tournaments. I expect that a few of the top players already do this.....
THE COMPUTERS ARE INTRINSICALLY HUMAN TOO!
It is a very sad situation. David Tebb's frustration is understandable. Since the suspension of game modding, I also feel far less inclined to play here. If the site is going to retain good human players, the Site Admins are going to have to give this matter some urgent and serious attention.
For as long as they remain silent, RHP is an engine free-for-all.
Originally posted by GatecrasherLet us just put this into perspective. How long have the game mods been disbanded? Not long. The players at the top of the heap haven't changed much so if RHP is an engine free for all now then it was an engine free for all when the game mods were operating. I will leave it to others to draw any conclusions they wish from that.
It is a very sad situation. David Tebb's frustration is understandable. Since the suspension of game modding, I also feel far less inclined to play here. If the site is going to retain good [b]human players, the Site Admins are going to have to give this matter some urgent and serious attention.
For as long as they remain silent, RHP is an engine free-for-all.[/b]
Originally posted by GatecrasherWe can always start some petition thread. If you pay for the site to play with people you have right to play against people not against Shredders or Fritzes.
It is a very sad situation. David Tebb's frustration is understandable. Since the suspension of game modding, I also feel far less inclined to play here. If the site is going to retain good [b]human players, the Site Admins are going to have to give this matter some urgent and serious attention.
For as long as they remain silent, RHP is an engine free-for-all.[/b]
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Since this thread is largely about me, I thought I had better respond to it. Thanks for those who posted kind comments, especially flexmore, Pigface, Ramned, Yuga, and Gatecrasher (apologies to anyone I missed out).
As several people have said, I am frustrated and disappointed with the amount of engine use on the site, compared to say 2 years ago. I'm sure it's not just my imagination, as many other players have told me the same thing. For instance one of the best players on the site, who has won several big tournaments, recently told me that he now assumes all his opponents are using engines!
If I am right, and engine use has increased over time, then why has that happened? One explanation is that engines have become much stronger and more easily available. There are many free engines that can be downloaded from the Internet that play at top grandmaster strength. Also computer hardware is constantly getting faster and better. With just a few mouse clicks, anyone can effectively get help from a 2700 strength player, who within a few seconds can show them moves and ideas that would never occur to them. Therefore the dishonest players who use engines have an enormous advantage over the honest players who don't. The temptation to use engines and gain such an advantage is too much for some people.
Another explanation is that the site isn't doing enough to stop engine use. Well, only so much can be done. The Game Mods were just 3 volunteers with limited time at their disposal, who also had their own games to play. They could only really deal with suspected engine users who had been reported to them. Unfortunately not many people actually bothered to report their suspicions, even when their opponent was a blatant cheat. Either they assumed that someone else must have reported them, they didn't think they had enough 'evidence', or they had lost confidence in the Game Mod process. It did used to take a very long time between reporting an engine user and eventually seeing them banned.
But that is all in the past. The Game Mods have now been abolished (why they were abolished is another story). With the site owners busy dealing with server upgrades and missing data issues, it's understandable that they haven't been able or willing to deal with the engine problem. That's unfortunate because engine use is a very big problem that won't go away.
Originally posted by David TebbMy two cents on this:
Since this thread is largely about me, I thought I had better respond to it. Thanks for those who posted kind comments, especially flexmore, Pigface, Ramned, Yuga, and Gatecrasher (apologies to anyone I missed out).
As several people have said, I am frustrated and disappointed with the amount of engine use on the site, compared to say 2 years ago. I'm ...[text shortened]... blem. That's unfortunate because engine use is a very big problem that won't go away.
Cheaters only worry me because I fear that good players and good games for me to actually learn something could leave the site. I enjoy a lot when higher rated and with bigger knowledge with me discuss ideas either on the Chess forum or on the private forums. So that definitely would be a loss.
A lot of people seem to think that on the lower ratings there could exist the occasional cheaters making a move or two by engine and the rest playing by themslves. This don't worry me too much. Since the loser is always the one that makes the last mistake. So chances are that in one of their actual moves the mistake may lie. But I don't believe too much that there are people doing that and if there is I'm just sorry for them.
I stopped trying to understand why some people cheat. Now I just play my game, try to have fun and try to learn.
And my other thought is that this cliamate of suspicion has to end.The admin should really take care of this subject once the site issues are taken care of. An announcement on why the mod team was disbanded and what they now have in mind would be good too. I'm not expecting them to fully disclose the new system, this could give the sorry bunch some ideas on how to sidestep the system, but some sort of explanation would be good.
Originally posted by Yugayeah, I've noticed some players suddenly stop getting top-level opponents against them, and I've always assumed they were recognized as obvious engine users...
Players that understand distinctions between engine and human styles can simply do a background check of games of potential opposition; then play clan games and avoid some tournaments. I expect that a few of the top players already do this.
Originally posted by David TebbIt would appear the 2007 Championship is lost.
The 2007 Championship is a good place to start.
When I got a subscription to RHP I believed this site to have moderators that would ensure cheats/engine users were removed from the site. It's very disappointing to see that there are no mods and that there is cheating in the high rated players.
I do understand that there have been upgrades to the site that have been a priority, but when the integrity of the site is at stake and other high rated players are discussing alternative sites to move to, surely it's time a decision/announcement was made on this matter. Deleting posts in the forums isn't solving the problem.
Originally posted by Pawn QweenTotally agreed. If for some reason the site administrators can't make a decision yet, the very least they should do would be a public announcement giving some information about the work that is hopefully going on in the background, and giving an estimate when they'll be able to come up with some sort of solution.
It would appear the 2007 Championship is lost.
When I got a subscription to RHP I believed this site to have moderators that would ensure cheats/engine users were removed from the site. It's very disappointing to see that there are no mods and that there is cheating in the high rated players.
I do understand that there have been upgrades to the site t ...[text shortened]... announcement was made on this matter. Deleting posts in the forums isn't solving the problem.
Engine use is, has, and will always be a problem in all levels of chess. Sadly enough, even some modern super GM's have been accused.
I agree with Mr. Tebb's frustration. I have had mixed success with some of these same "players" that I suspect, too.
I would hate to see Mr. Tebb give up on this site, as it was in analyzing Mr. Tebb's and others' games that attracted me here. If they give up, then I'm not sure why I'm here either.