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The point of the Fischer defense is that it is, as Fischer said, 'a high-class waiting move'. The idea is to be able to play h6 and g5 without worrying about the Kieseritzky (or however you spell it) gambit line with Ne5.
Thus 4.c4 h6! 5.d4?! g5 reaches a postion from the Hanstein gambit which is considered favourable to Black. Instead of 5.d4, 5.d3 has been played (though McDonald thinks this is simply bad for White) or 5.h4 to prevent Black consolidating the kingside - 5...Nf6 6.Nc3 Nc6! 7.d4 Nh5 and again Mcdonald claims an advantage for Black (based on the game McDonald - Flear, Hastings 1992/3).
Hope this helps!
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Originally posted by Osse4. c4 --?! NEver seen that puppy before. My theory on the Fischer defense is simple: "wing play is met by counterplay in the center." While black is futzing around with h6 and g5 and all the rest, white is getting in, ideally, Bc4, d4, Qd3 (to squash any stupid bishop pins on the knight) and then e5. So on the line given as white I'd just bang out an immediate d4 followed by Qd3 and try and crack open the center for an attack.
The point of the Fischer defense is that it is, as Fischer said, 'a high-class waiting move'. The idea is to be able to play h6 and g5 without worrying about the Kieseritzky (or however you spell it) gambit line with Ne5.
Thus 4.c4 h6! 5. ...[text shortened]... n the game McDonald - Flear, Hastings 1992/3).
Hope this helps!
I actually think that's the weakness of the Fischer defense -- that it is, in fact, a waiting move. A waiting move against the fastest opening in chess...
Originally posted by paultopiaI think this is the main line of the fischer defense.
4. c4 --?! NEver seen that puppy before. My theory on the Fischer defense is simple: "wing play is met by counterplay in the center." While black is futzing around with h6 and g5 and all the rest, white is getting in, ideally, Bc4, d4, Qd3 (to squash any stupid bishop pins on the knight) and then e5. So on the line given as white I'd just bang out ...[text shortened]... - that it is, in fact, a waiting move. A waiting move against the fastest opening in chess...
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. d4 g5 6. O-O Nc6
Black's position looks pretty solid to me. Black can develop his queenside peices to active kingside or center positions and get a quick O-O-O in. Then the kingside pawn storm looks pretty dangerous. If white forgoes the kingside and instead focuses queenside, forcing black to react queenside, I think attacking chances will still exist (due to the white center which was bought with a pawn). I think center play will lead to equality or worse, since both sides can get minor peices out quickly and kingside play is doomed as this continuation, which seems typical according to the database, demonstrates.
7. g3 Bg7 8. c3 Bh3 9. gxf4 Qd7 10. Rf2 Nf6 11. Qe1 O-O-O
So the waiting move buys time by forcing white to redirect the attack.
Originally posted by egsmith7. g3?? why?
I think this is the main line of the fischer defense.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. d4 g5 6. O-O Nc6
Black's position looks pretty solid to me. Black can develop his queenside peices to active kingside or center positions and get a quick O-O-O in. Then the kingside pawn storm looks pretty dangerous. If white forgoes the kingside and in ...[text shortened]... Rf2 Nf6 11. Qe1 O-O-O
So the waiting move buys time by forcing white to redirect the attack.
Originally posted by paultopiaFirst, let me say I NEVER play the KG, but I certainly do enjoy analyzing chess positions. So here's my .03 cents worth.
7. g3?? why?
I agree with Paul. I can't see 7.g3 here for white. That's much too slow and seems to not be accomplishing much except wrecking white's already slighty exposed king.
I think 7.Nc3 (developing) or even 7.Qd3 (centralizing the queen for an attack) are much more aggressive moves and more in line with taking advantage of the plusses white already has - 2 mobile center pawns and a lead in development.
Also, what about 7.e5? Busting open the center while black's king is still there. That's not my style, but if you're gonna play a gambit you may as well go for it. :-)
Originally posted by alib2004Try this 😉
What is the best move for King's gambit after the following moves..
1. e4 e5
2. f4 exf4
3. Nf3 d6
4. Bc4
I have a hard time defending my pieces with this opening and often times settle for a draw... I need to find a way to counter-attack this opening
Game 758715
7.g3 is essential because White has to undermine Blacks kside pawns; otherwise Black is far too solid, has a pawn extra, and any attempts at an attack by White are going to founder.
The whole Bc4 line in the fischer defence is dodgy for White for this reason - the 'main' line runs 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4!, undermining the Kside before Black can get Bg7 in. 5...g4 6.Ng1 and the position is interesting.
Originally posted by wibIf King exposure is a concern at all, the KG is definately not for you...
First, let me say I NEVER play the KG, but I certainly do enjoy analyzing chess positions. So here's my .03 cents worth.
I agree with Paul. I can't see 7.g3 here for white. That's much too slow and seems to not be accomplishing much except wrecking white's already slighty exposed king.
I think 7.Nc3 (developing) or even 7.Qd3 (centralizing the que ...[text shortened]... there. That's not my style, but if you're gonna play a gambit you may as well go for it. :-)
Paul and I trade KG games a lot. g3 is not agressive enough for my style in KG...but I also never use Fisher's Bb4 either. Lets just put Bobby Fischer as a * when it comes to KG play. He did it as well as anyone can, but only he knows how he does it.
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Originally posted by gumbieEr, or not. 🙂 My last move in that game was "Oh dear. My position has collapsed. I'd better sac a bishop and see if it distracts him!" It didn't work.
Try this 😉
Game 758715
Gumbie's 7. ... Ne7, however, practically refuted my whole strategy against the Fischer defense. The whole point of the agressive center pawn-pushing is to grab tempo with pawn-threats against the black knight on f6. Ne7 prevented that and thus killed any chance at a central breakthrough. At the same time, it was surprisingly strong there defending the kingside. I couldn't figure out a way to break in along the light-squares at all. That, too is part of my usual strategy against the fischer defense: humiliate the f6 knight, then invade along the weakened light squares.
At that point, I probably should have saced the light-squared bishop or something then stormed in with the c pawn too. Maybe. Hard to say. Maybe pushed the kside pawns, since the development of his queen was impaired and I controlled the center.
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Originally posted by paultopiaInspired by this thread, I did a quick bit of internet research on that Ne7 move. Lo and behold, I just found that move in Fischer's original article, although he puts a different move in the text (which is probably why nobody's ever tried 7. ... Ne7 on me) he suggests that the footnoted 7. ... Ne7 is actually BETTER. Why he put a less-good move in the text escapes me completely, but he notes "there is little practical experience with this sub-variation."
Gumbie's 7. ... Ne7, however, practically refuted my whole strategy
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/bust.txt
Obviously, I'm going to have to dig up some more analysis on that "sub-variation" that Fischer likes better but didn't bother to explain! Or stick a computer on it for a while. How annoying. I hope he stays in jail! 🙂
Originally posted by paultopiaI was reading the article as we were playing 😉
Inspired by this thread, I did a quick bit of internet research on that Ne7 move. Lo and behold, I just found that move in Fischer's original article, although he puts a different move in the text (which is probably why nobody's ever tried 7. ... Ne7 on me) he suggests that the footnoted 7. ... Ne7 is actually BETTER. Why he put a less-good move in the ...[text shortened]... to explain! Or stick a computer on it for a while. How annoying. I hope he stays in jail! 🙂
Originally posted by wibI gave a g3 line because I was trying to show why kingside play was doomed and why white needs to consider other avenues of attack. However since all play was kingside thus far time must be spent in this redirect, hence, the "waiting" move.
First, let me say I NEVER play the KG, but I certainly do enjoy analyzing chess positions. So here's my .03 cents worth.
I agree with Paul. I can't see 7.g3 here for white. That's much too slow and seems to not be accomplishing much except wrecking white's already slighty exposed king.
I think 7.Nc3 (developing) or even 7.Qd3 (centralizing the que ...[text shortened]... there. That's not my style, but if you're gonna play a gambit you may as well go for it. :-)
I agree with both Nc3 and Qd3. I would play Nc3, strengthing the center (white's main plus) and then start looking queenside. Black's position is free and he can get his peices out just as fast so I don't think busting the center (which was paid for with the pawn) is in white's interest just yet.
Originally posted by egsmithThe problem with Nc3 is that it risks overwhelming pressure on white's d4 pawn after Bg4. This is a very common theme in the fischer defense, as well as the KGD. That's why I prefer to reinforce the d4 pawn with c3 and put the QN on d7.
I agree with both Nc3 and Qd3. I would play Nc3, strengthing the center (white's main plus) and then start looking queenside.
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Originally posted by OsseI don't really think g3 is essential. I think the kingside is equal and whomever attacks there first, without more re-enforcement, looses it. I also think re-enforcement moves by white can be matched by black so it's better to seek play else where in attempt to secure an advantage there instead.
7.g3 is essential because White has to undermine Blacks kside pawns; otherwise Black is far too solid, has a pawn extra, and any attempts at an attack by White are going to founder.
The whole Bc4 line in the fischer defence is dodgy for Whi ...[text shortened]... lack can get Bg7 in. 5...g4 6.Ng1 and the position is interesting.
I agree 5...g4 leads to an interesting position but I don't think it is part of black's plan. Black was seeking to neutralize the kingside while counterattacking the center. I think playing 5...Bg7 directly fits nicely within this plan.